PDA

View Full Version : Media Factory (jp) asked Animesuki to take down fansubs



starcaptor
12-09-2004, 04:03 AM
Hey alls, sorry of this is a repeat, but I searched forums, didnt find it. This is an issue I think is pretty important, just wanted to get peoples opinions.

I read at animesuki that mediafactory had a lawyer send email (and certified international letter i think?) on Dec. 7 to animesuki telling them to remove all of their works, albeit them only being licensed for distribution in Japan only for the time being:

Check It Out Here (http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/legal/mediafactory.html)

This could have serious implications for the fansub community, as before we only (well, at least I do), dreaded US licensors taking a series down from fansub distribution through cease and desist requests.

Will this impact fansubs in the future? Just wanted to get peoples two cents.

PS - I hope by the time the next Akane Maniax comes out (its one of the titles taken down at Media Factory Request), that there will be some other venue of obtaining ;)

NightviSion
12-09-2004, 05:37 AM
This is the beginning of an end :p
Actually, I had a sense this would happen sometime sooner, and I wouldn't be surprised a bit if I come tomorrow and see all the fansubs were discontinued.
And just think how awful it would become if the japanese gaming companies took action :eek:

Xaionara
12-09-2004, 06:37 AM
Dunno if even hosting torrents is illegal, like it seems to me it depends in what country the host(tracker/server) is in, as for a BT site called Thepiratebay they have recived alot of Emails from variouse companies trying to take down the torrents with the help from the law but all of them have failed cus its not illegal(not in sweden(prolly not only sweden))
for more info look at this site:

http://static.thepiratebay.org/legal/

superotaku
12-09-2004, 07:17 AM
WHHAAAT! would this mean that we might have to start paying membership fees like napster and the others to keep torrents?!?!? :eek: :(

mahouneko
12-09-2004, 07:26 AM
It really depends on what idea of copyright infringement the production company has. If they're really protective of their works, well, that's not going to be good news.

Lisa Hayes
12-09-2004, 08:22 AM
That kinda pisses me off. I don't hold anything for protecting yourself and all the work you do to offer this medium to us. But I don't understand the japanese company complaining about fansubs because IMO fansubs increase the amount of knowledge/interest in their shows and has their fans ask american distributors to license them.

I know I've seen American distribution companies in the past list several non-licensed titles on their websites and ask fans 'So which show would you like to see us try to pursue a license for?'

How would people even know about that to vote without fansubs? It's just silly IMO.

And if they're doing this it'll just be a matter of time before other japanese companies get onboard and decide to send out similar things.

I can understand a company trying to protect their product and finances, but I think in this case they're just way off base.

Kitee
12-09-2004, 09:18 AM
I can't believe they're doing something like this.
Fansubs are just like replays in Japan. They're aired and watched by japanese people. What's the difference to let even more people watch them? They don't make a difference anyways. I understand their concern about licienced animes, but certainly not this one.

Frosty
12-09-2004, 09:27 AM
Anyone with legal knowledge here? Can they really bring a case against AnimeSuki? Disregarding the whole legality issue of fansubs, the website is just a collection of links isnt it? Will be interesting to know for certain since HF can be affected in the same way.

Psygoli
12-09-2004, 09:29 AM
Well this doesn't sound very good but for the meantime I am going to watch where this is going to develop.Let's just hope that it doesn't get any worse than this ;)
If it however gets much worse,it might mean that I have to start buying my anime.

Lisa Hayes
12-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Fansubs are just like replays in Japan. They're aired and watched by japanese people. Fansub works actually get aired on local tv in Japan? I didn't know that.
I always thought that only licensed products gets aired in the local tv. :confused:

Kitee
12-09-2004, 09:43 AM
Fansub works actually get aired on local tv in Japan? I didn't know that.
I always thought that only licensed products gets aired in the local tv. :confused:
the ones aired in Japan are the RAW ones.
But RAWs are only in Japan, fansubs are like making the whole world to be able to see it.

Shiryuu
12-09-2004, 10:19 AM
Meh... its not like they can completely stop all fansubbers\trackers anyways.

BOiNG!
12-09-2004, 10:57 AM
As for Media Factory's incident, I won't go so far to say that they're wrong. It IS their properties, they have the right to say what's right & what's not, whether they want to make more money out of them by distribution or popularity/recognition (fansub or otherwise) is entirely up to them, silly or not. They have their own reasons, it's not our decision to make. As for distributed raw animes (NOT private), they are equivalent as US/Hollywood DVD/TV/etc. licensed rips distro., so it's their decision whether they want to sue or not (US movie studios already targeted some users). As anime culture is getting more & more popular (& thus making more money), we know that this is going to happen sooner or later. As for Animesuki, I don't think they're the ones in deepest trouble, it's the original distros who are going to get the most headaches out of these.


http://www.picsplace.to/045042/1102527717552.gif
It's just a matter of time before it get serious.......

Xaionara
12-09-2004, 11:19 AM
But what is wrong on hosting Torrents? its just a pice of information on HOW you can download. Yes its wrong in USA, but there is contries that those stuff is legal. Its not the site that is doing anything wrong its those that is seeding and downloading

BOiNG!
12-09-2004, 11:24 AM
As I said, the ORIGINAL distros. I think they're just targeting Animesuki (since it hosts lots of torrent) just to scare the others, like scarywater which hosts a lot of the these. Legal or not, it depends on the original seeders, which is another long story debated before.......

Mad-B_Man
12-09-2004, 01:45 PM
It was also stated in the anoucnment that Animesuki "might" get away with it, since none of the torrents are hosted there. They just didn't want to go through the legal hassle.

Fansubs are no doubt illegal, no matter where, becuase of international copyright laws (Except Russia maybe, I heard they don't care about copyright). I think that most Japanese studios don't give a damn about TV series being subbed. In this case however, I heard that "Akane Maniax" which was leaked 4 days before sales (Yes, it's an OVA if you didn't know) was listed (Don't see why they should care, since it sucks so bad). While they're at it, why not make AS takedown all of Media Factory Inc. series?

I think that we, the hongfire community, should also be careful of this. Not only that we have fansubs, osts, and Raws, but also R1 DVD rips and a whole load of H-Games.

BOiNG!
12-09-2004, 01:54 PM
I heard that "Akane Maniax" which was leaked 4 days before sales (Yes, it's an OVA if you didn't know) was listed (Don't see why they should care, since it sucks so bad).
Which is one of the reasons/excuses why they attacked AnimeSuki. Since Akane Maniax is an OAV, targeted only to hardcore fans (those who played/knew the H-Games anyway), & it sucks BIG time (IMO only), the number of viewers is going to be limited, & once people know it sucks (after viewing leaks), those OAV are not going to sell well. :p

skittles
12-09-2004, 02:39 PM
Meh... its not like they can completely stop all fansubbers\trackers anyways.
I agree. Too many underground subbers/trackers out there anyway. Many of them are US based and they have been ignoring US licenses too - they certainly wouldnt care about JP licences.
As for RAW dsitribution to subbers (or collectors), Winny alteast wouldn't be affected at all since their distribution had always been illegal...:)

peenoi
12-09-2004, 06:27 PM
NOOOO GENSHINKEN!!!!! Please don't go away T_T

[UNKNOWN]
12-09-2004, 06:57 PM
Wow this is freaky. The days of free anime maybe numbered??

I think we better grab everything we can and burn it all so we have it for later, before the situation gets worse. Who knows what torrent hosting site is next on the hit list.
*paranoia*
I think we should be a warned. Seed and grab stuff while you can, people.
Better be safe than sorry ;)

shivand1
12-09-2004, 10:20 PM
I also heard that people in Japan are DLing fansubs so they don't have to purchase the animes or watch it on TV. Now, the TV part might sound silly at first, but the animes on TV, believe it or not, gets their money from commercials. Now, fansubs cut out commercials. See the problem here?

Anyways, though I'm disappointed, I'll side with the Japanese company. Maybe their profits were starting to slip or something (and an OVA series leaking out before the sale is really bad). After all, I enjoy the anime they put out and I'll be damned if they disappear like Cherry Soft.

Wednesday
12-09-2004, 10:39 PM
Can they at least make JP sound with ENG sub ONLY for $19.00, instead of ENG dub for $29.00 per DVD sheeshh. This is just like RIAA selling 1 good music with 11 crappy ones in an album.

Not only that, the sub on the DVD are horrible with the yellow fonts and ragged edges.

shivand1
12-10-2004, 12:19 AM
http://www.deepdiscountdvd.com/ usually has anime DVDs at less than 20 dollars. Most ADV releases are at about 18 bucks at most (opposed to the normal 30) Try it out man.

Zhenn Rodus
12-10-2004, 12:28 AM
I'm watching where this is developing...

mamang
12-10-2004, 12:32 AM
i think the biggest problem is not the fansubs. it's the action taken by who download fansubs. they make pay site regardless they download for free. or they make their own vcd or dvd and sell it to public. maybe it's what the japan company worry about. piracy by using fansubs stuff is the real problem.

shivand1
12-10-2004, 12:56 AM
true, I see Hongkong pirate DVDs all the time (very inferior quality at that) and also I do see many people selling fansubs on e-bay, and that pisses me off more than anything.

alyx
12-10-2004, 02:18 AM
Shock of my life. :eek: never knew that jap company will go after fansubber. I always hear that how fansubber helps jap company licensed their product..blah blah...US companies tracks fansubber to see what animes are popular and license the...blah blah... i saw in asuki forum that lunar, solar, shining, decided to stop subbing media factory works.

ah..well..is this the begining of the end? i hope not.

as for HK bootlegs dvds...this has hit my country. even my govt has put a nice hologram tag of 'original' in front of the dvd. this has shocked me after coming back from abroad after 2 years. they even have the newest animes like bleach, mai hime...faster than the fansubs. :eek:
greedy ppl not only sells fansubs on ebay but in stores too here. this pissess me the most.

BOiNG!
12-10-2004, 03:23 AM
as for HK bootlegs dvds...this has hit my country. even my govt has put a nice hologram tag of 'original' in front of the dvd. this has shocked me after coming back from abroad after 2 years. they even have the newest animes like bleach, mai hime...faster than the fansubs. :eek:
greedy ppl not only sells fansubs on ebay but in stores too here. this pissess me the most.
I knew very well about these "Government" approved :rolleyes: original products (complete with some fancy-shit hologram stickers). I've actually seen them & discussed about these in other forums. Dumbass government, don't even know whether they're actually licensed/fan-sub rips. They even sell Love Hina (among others) fan-subs on VCD & labeled them as ORIGINAL! These people are out there just to trick little rich & poor kids into buying below average/unoriginal products bootlegs, much like the SonMay & other Taiwan "Original" Soundtracks bootlegs, which some STILL considered them as originals (even "Government" officials themselves) They're the worst, REALLY MAKES ME MAD!!! :mad::mad::mad:*
*Sorry, out of topic, but can't resist to release anger. :mad:

Frosty
12-10-2004, 03:36 AM
I knew very well about these "Government" approved :rolleyes: original products (complete with some fancy-shit hologram stickers). I've actually seen them & discussed about these in other forums. Dumbass government, don't even know whether they're actually licensed/fan-sub rips. They even sell Love Hina (among others) fan-subs on VCD & labeled them as ORIGINAL! These people are out there just to trick little rich & poor kids into buying below average/unoriginal products bootlegs, much like the SonMay & other Taiwan "Original" Soundtracks bootlegs, which some STILL considered them as originals (even "Government" officials themselves) They're the worst, REALLY MAKES ME MAD!!! :mad::mad::mad:*
*Sorry, out of topic, but can't resist to release anger. :mad:

Unfortunately for me, was one of those who bought those without knowing better. Hong Kong or Taiwan bootleg, low quality and poor subs. Still want to do some headbanging everytime I see the dvds I spent a couple hundred bucks on. Worst thing is just about all the local shops sell the same thing.

AzureLight
12-10-2004, 04:12 AM
Mmm... it's a very complex issue. They think that P2P programs are responsible for bootlegs and piracy, but in truth it's just the same as airing them on TV and all. It also has a good effect to their products - being exposed to more people outside the country, they can get profit from tourists that come to Japan to buy merchandise that come with the anime.

krotch
12-10-2004, 05:30 AM
What's my take on it? Well, here's essentially what I said on a different site.

"It's their work and they can do what they want with it."

Fansubbing is illegal to begin with. Fansubs are killing the $$ flow in the US market, but I'm sure it also does the same thing in Japan. Granted they are fansubbed, but you think the Japanese don't download the raws or fansubs either. They can get them free on the internet or pay roughly $50 for each dvd.

I'm really not surprised. I'm more surprised that this didn't start sooner. If you think it's wrong, then you can STFU. Granted it's your opinion and all, but it's their work. It's their time and money put on the line to create the shows with a thought of $$ returns.

They make money through dvds. They make money through vhs. They make money through advertisements on tv. No matter what way the media is, they make some kind of $$ back, except for fansubs/raws that are provided through the net.

The only issue I can see is the fact that a lot of shows will never see homes in the US. Many schoolkids type anime never really make it to the states.

Babel
12-10-2004, 09:25 PM
And here's mine........

Three months ago I owned 2 anime DVDs. Like most people I know, I only buy DVDs if I've seen and liked what's on them, theyr'e too expensive to buy 'blind'. That goes for film, drama, music vids, whatever. I'm from the UK so there's not much anime shown here.
Then I discovered fansubs on the torrents, and started watching new and old animes. I now own 25 + anime DVDs and am looking for another 5 at the moment. What will it mean to me if the fansubs stop? Well, I won't buy anime series just on a sample episode or two (too many series are cropped short with either no ending or a tacked-on kill everything/fall in love hasty finish), and for every 'elfen lied' there are twenty crappy series, so I'll stop buying anime.
This means a loss to the anime industry of 100 DVDs a year. Not a lot, but how many like me are out there?

krotch
12-10-2004, 09:30 PM
Not that much. There are a hell of a lot more ppl who simply download and never buy. If they stop fansubbers, more than likely, their will be a gain of over 100 DVDs a year. A loss from you means jack squat in the big scheme of things.

I buy a lot of anime already, including downloading. If I couldn't download anime, I'd end up spending even more money on dvds.

shaselai
12-10-2004, 11:20 PM
I think the anime companies got the rights to do anything they want... i mean most of us here are not going to buy the stuff we are torrenting- be it hentai games (~60usd each), manga (~5-6usd), anime series (~20 per 3 eps) etc. so since we are getting them for free we dont really have the right to "talk back" to the companies. If the fansubbing community decreases then the "regular fans"- non japanese speakers/learners will decrease since they wont understand the raws so they will most likely pick another hobby or something and the US license anime will suffer and it will go right back to the company. Can we live without fansubed anime and get stuck with bad licensed material? I think yes but it will be better if the fansub community will stay this way...

Like others I also buy DVDs and i would say about 40% are influenced by fansubs/raws, 40% by the manga and 20% more or less on reviews/images. I tend to wait for the ending of the show first (unless its a really long series like One Piece) then decide. Elfin Lied's ending was less than satisfactory and that swayed my decision of getting the DVDs (Japan version or US) and i thank fansubbing for saving me money on that.

krotch
12-11-2004, 12:47 AM
I like a variety of anime. The only dvds I've bought that I didn't like was Sin. That's one out 390ish dvds.

If you want to save money, go rent whatever. Or you can be like Shaselai. Watch all of Elfin Lied. Apparently enjoy the series enough that she/he could make it to the ending of the series. Then say the ending was less than satisfactory and not even consider buying it.

That's essentially the fanbase of anime. When it's free, why pay. If you went into a restuarant, get a meal, eat all of it, then say it didn't meet your requirements and not pay, you're ass would be in jail.

Guess there will be the few ppl out there (like me) who are willing to dump money into the anime biz, so that more anime may be produced.

If the whole fansubbing community dies out, it won't hurt me any. I've been watching anime since the days of zero fansubbers and all you had was trading. Getting a copy of a copy of a copy, that was copied from tv with zero subtitles. Boo hoo hoo! The anime companies are trying to spank fansubbers. STFU.

BOiNG!
12-11-2004, 01:24 AM
Well, everyone got their own points here. Before we go off topic again, here's some info regarding more about the MF's attack.

Further investigations also reveal that the reason why the Tokyo lawfirm had originally sent AnimeSuki.com and LunarAnime the letters of warning, was because a particular affilliate company was displeased with "Akane Maniax" being available on fansub before DVD. They found no mention of "School Rumble" in particular. WF thus finds this incident to be furthermore, possibly irrelevant to its current operations. Therefore WF will exercise indifference until there is solid evidence that Media Factory has the correct/relevant legal claim, and displays a conclusive will to shutdown WF's School Rumble works.

-WF Associate Press in conjuction with WF Investigative unit
Can't blame MF for it. It's similiar to the Half-Life 2 leaking incident. The original report can be viewed here: http://www.animesuki.com/doc.php/legal/mediafactory.html

Osaka
12-11-2004, 01:58 PM
I'm been reading about this as well. TV fansubs in general I don't think bother them as much since the show usually has already aired on tv and watched by many with the commercials that support them. No fansub ever comes out the same day it airs (raws don't count). Now dvd fansubs are different. You have to buy them to watch them so even tho we can't buy them outside of Japan and make fansubs of them to enjoy them, nothing stops someone in Japan from downloading a dvd ripped almost perfect copy (besides it having subs on it). They can still watch it, and may not like it and not buy it, hurting the company. Or they do like it but don't think it's worth buying the dvds just for a few OVA episodes.

Babel
12-11-2004, 02:00 PM
Not that much. There are a hell of a lot more ppl who simply download and never buy.

Krotch, that would be your opinion, not fact right? Or do you have information the rest of us don't?


Then say the ending was less than satisfactory and not even consider buying it.

What's wrong with that? It's called discernment. If someone doesn't like something why should they buy it? If everyone did that, then the quality would go right down the pan. You may enjoy everything you ever bought 'blind', but I doubt many others do.


Boo hoo hoo! The anime companies are trying to spank fansubbers. STFU.

Wow, that's really constructive, thanks!

mahouneko
12-15-2004, 01:55 PM
As far as I understand it, fansubs have always been illegal since they infringe upon the intellectual properties of the producing company. The other thing about fansubs is that it is a double-edged sword. Since it provides the audience with a free entertainment medium of a licensed product from overseas, the audience can either store it and never bother with a local licensed version or they can help the cause by purchasing said local licensed versions. The bigger question here is just how much of the money we pay to these "local licensing companies" actually gets to the original producers. I imagine that the royalties should be proportional to the price of the product in the US market.

I've actually spent a lot of money on anime that were licensed by American companies. Here's a small list:
-Angelic Layer
-Magic Knights Rayearth 1 & 2
-Crest/Banner of the Stars collection
-Slayers (original, NEXT, TRY, and movies)
-CardCaptor Sakura
-Fruits Basket
-Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou
-Irresponsible Capt. Tylor
-Last Exile
-Kaleido Star
-Galaxy Angels
-Saikano
-Someday's Dreamers

I can go on and on but the fact of the matter is that I have both the fansub copy and the local US version and I've already phased out my fansub copies. That's the same way my school's anime club operates. I do this because I strongly believe that the purpose of fansubs is to provide the rest of the world (or target audience) an insight into either an aspect of Japanese society or a taste of what anime is really like. Fansubbers aren't subbing out of pity for the audience. They sub unlicensed animes because they want to promote an anime that they feel is very entertaining and SHOULD be made available to everyone through legal means.

Basically, it comes down to this:
1. Fansubbing is illegal
2. Leechers can either support the anime industry, or screw everyone involved by being a self-righteous prick
3. Fansubbers don't exist for your sake; they exist to promote Japanese culture and artstyles and to improve on their Japanese
4. Fansubbing is actually free promotion of an unavailable product that is not authorized by the original producers
5. The original companies DO understand this and each company has its own opinion of whether fansubs are tolerable or intolerable
6. American licensing companies... well, it's hard to say that they're in it to promote Japanese culture. For the most part, they're in it for the money. Plus, I don't know anyone in the American licensing industry.

I know that it's long, but that's my two cents.

krotch
12-15-2004, 02:58 PM
1. Fansubbing is illegal.
2. Most leechers are just that. Leechers, don't bring much to the community. I myself have bought close to 400 dvds. US licensed or Japanese original. This still does not amount to the 1200+ gigs of crap that sits on my computer or the 128+ burnt dvds of anime I have. Why? I can't afford to do it, thus, the US company or Japanese company is out of some of my money.
3. Fansubbers came about because they wanted to do it. It wasn't to promote jack. They simply wanted to do it. Nowadays, a group is created for our sakes, but there are ppl within the group that simply just wanted to fansub, not promote jack. Trust me, I've helped a fansub group before. I also plan on becoming a raw provider in the future.
4. Regardless of promotion or not, it doesn't matter to a Japanese company to promote a series outside of Japan. A US company doesn't really base it off the fansub community or not. If they did, SD Gundam Force would have never been released in the US.
5. I wouldn't try to understand the original company. Considering I'm not part of them, nor do I even speak their language.
6. Most anime companies started out to promote anime. I can only think of one US anime company that still does this. That would be AnimEigo.



Babel>>


Krotch, that would be your opinion, not fact right? Or do you have information the rest of us don't?

First off, it's common sense that it would be that way. Take a look at the fanbase first off. Most of the fanbase is composed of ages 17 - 25. High School students and College students. You really think they have the money to blow on anime.


What's wrong with that? It's called discernment. If someone doesn't like something why should they buy it? If everyone did that, then the quality would go right down the pan. You may enjoy everything you ever bought 'blind', but I doubt many others do.

What's right with it first off? It is illegal.

Here's an example. You go into a store, eat a whole candy bar, it doesn't meet your standards, and then you leave without paying. What's that? That's right, shoplifting.


Wow, that's really constructive, thanks!

No where in the thread does it say that I need to be constructive. Course, I will say this. My posts have been a lot more constructive than lets say...oh...I don't know. Your's perhaps.

shivand1
12-15-2004, 03:18 PM
Can I request that Babel and krotch calm down a little? I don't want this breaking out in to a flame war and I sense one on the horizon.

mahouneko
12-16-2004, 12:51 AM
3. Fansubbers do it for the heck of it? Is that what the current policy is? I was working in Anime-Fansubs back when they subbed Azumanga Daioh. Maybe I've just been out of the circle for too long.
4. I thought the licensing of Azumanga Daioh was affected by the fansub community? Azumanga Daioh was one of those titles that weren't highly publicized when they were aired in Japan.
6. Oh god... "What is ANIME? *bang**bang*" Stupid ADV clip. That clip doesn't explain the essence of what ANIME is. I think my favorite US Company is either Bandai or Pioneer (Geneon), then AnimeEigo for all the wacky random animes. I love Fruits Basket and I'm GRATEFUL that Funimation didn't mess it up. How DID they get their hands on that jewel (Fruits Basket) anyway?

Babel
12-16-2004, 08:59 AM
My posts have been a lot more constructive than lets say...oh...I don't know. Your's perhaps. Telling people to STFU and stating opinion as fact is constructive? Heh, I don't think so.

Your bald and unsupported statements are NOT facts. It is not necessarily common sense that most people leech without ever buying. I've already stated that I don't, and neither does the poster above me (mahouneko). For me as I already stated, if I hadn't discovered fansubs, I wouldn't have bought most of the anime I now own.

You say it's illegal? Yes, so do I, but that doesn't have any bearing on an individual's choice. Whether I sat down and watched anime on Japanese TV legally, or I viewed it via a fansub illegally doesn't affect how I like it. What does affect it is whether or not I've seen it to make a judgement on it.

If you wish to flagellate yourself after watching a fansub, and then go out and buy it even if you hated it because you feel guilty that's your choice, but I'll continue to choose to buy only those anime that I like, and I'll only buy anime I've seen. :)


EDIT>>>>> Shivand1 , no worries, I've no intention of taking this any further, I've stated my opinions here, nothing more to add :cool:

krotch
12-16-2004, 12:46 PM
Mahouneko>>

3. That's essentially how fansubbing started. Not all groups nowadays that start up are like that, but when fansubbing first started, it was like that. Remember AnimeJunkies? They seemed to be in it for the glory and not about promoting anime at all. Just sub faster than any other group.

4. Fansubbing may or may not affect the licensing of a series. A company simply buys what they feel will sell. Ever heard of a series called Outlanders? No one's fansubbing it, but it's been licensed. How about Diamond Dust Drops? Well, it's been licensed. There are many series that aren't highly publicized, doesn't mean they aren't simply going to get licensed.

Shoot, Kaleido Star was licensed before it was even aired or produced for that matter.

6. Anime = Japanese animation. I don't need to explain anything about the essence or whatever. If it's made in Japan, it's anime. Shoot, if a Japanese guy living in Japan draws stick figures, he's created Japanese animation. Is there a real essence to that? No.

Babel>>

Did you bother to read any of my posts? Now you posted your own, so you know exactly what you said. Looking through them all, yes. I would say I have been more constructive than you.

Well, you seem to be a prime example of "common sense isn't so common." Take a look at this site. What age groups do you think everyone sits in? Do you think most of that age group can purchase anime? Now do you think this age group actually does purchase anime?

Let's see. A person may watch a series on HDTV on a Japanese station and truly enjoy the series. While at the same time, they watch a fansub version, in much lower quality, horrible sound, bad fansubs, and end up not liking the exact same series. The media you watch it in can easily affect how you end up liking the series.

Let's say we have someone who is hardcore religious and follows all rules. It's possible that the simple fact that they are watching an illegal fansub can affect the individual's choice. For some ppl out there, it's more enjoyable, when you know you're doing right.

Personally, if I had the cash, I'd buy every single anime out there if I could. Course seeing as I'm not rich, I can't. I don't even have the cash to buy every single fansub on a licensed dvd or Japanese dvd that I've downloaded and enjoyed.

Ladholyman
12-16-2004, 09:11 PM
Alright you guys, both of your hypocrises shine as smoothly and as brightly as a baby's ass. WE ARE ALL HYPOCRITES. Fansubs rule.

krotch
12-17-2004, 02:25 PM
Ewwww....pedo.

: P

alyx
12-17-2004, 08:51 PM
Alright you guys, both of your hypocrises shine as smoothly and as brightly as a baby's ass. WE ARE ALL HYPOCRITES. Fansubs rule.
well said my friend...well said...

Webbmaster62
12-18-2004, 01:15 AM
Fansubs do rule indeed ^_^ damm Media Factory....if everyone follows off on what there doing we can say goodbye to Animesuki..*sigh*

AnimeJanai
12-18-2004, 03:35 AM
Krotch, that would be your opinion, not fact right? Or do you have information the rest of us don't?
Krotch doesn't have to justify his viewpoint because he is using the economic concepts of supply and demand which were taught in the required class of "economics and free enterprise" in USA high school. Variations of this class may have different names, but in various States I have lived in, this type of class was one of the requirements in high school.

The purpose of a body of established economic knowledge is to avoid re-inventing or justifying the wheel. If someone has to justify an opinion, it is Babel.

Also, I see that in latter statements, Babel has changed his statement from saying that a body of people who have fansubs will have no decrease in the rate of purchasing the product. Instead, he has shifted it to defending a different viewpoint that people who leech do indeed buy anime. That is a VERY different argument in an economic and debating sense. Perhaps in the vernacular of this forum, Babel considers those two viewpoints to be the same, but forcing those two ideas to be equivalent results in an economic non sequiter in a reasoned debate of ideas.

As for someone's view that Krotch is hypocritical, that is indeed true. While defending the concept of copyright, both Krotch and I have downloaded fansubs in the past. But hypocrisy or not, that does NOT invalidate the concepts that:

(0) Economic concepts work on statistically valid bodies of people and not on specific individuals. Citing that oneself would buy more anime due to the existence of fansubs is not a valid factual point. However, citing that the availability of fansubs dilutes the total demand for the purchased product is a valid economic assertion using principles of economics.

(1) Some fans would NEVER buy anime even if downloads were not available. This group of people doesn't enter into the discussion.

(2) Many fans who download anime will in some form or another pass on copies to other fans. This is understood to statistically dilute the demand for purchased forms of anime.

(3) A significant number of fans download and then use fansubs as a review to buy SOME of their anime that they were sitting on the fence about. While there is agreement that the fansub may have stimulated purchase of a specific title, there is also agreement that the fansub may dissuade purchase of a specific title. If one assumes that the number of persuades versus dissuades is equal, then the added effect of diluting demand for purchasing the product over having a free one results in a statistically valid bias in this group of people.

(4) A significant number of fans anticipate the release of fansubs prior to actual availability of product. This is clearly a demand for a competing product to the original copyrighted version and affects the concept of marginal demand as well.

(5) etcetera....

Despite all that, I say "More Power to Fansubs!"

P.S. On top of all that, fansubs are clearly illegal in multiple ways. And as we know, it is the common body of law that defines what THEFT is. Downloading a fansub is THEFT of property. It is wishful thinking that clouds a person's judgment when they say it is not theft but sharing. It would be desirable that people do not blame others, but it seems to be a popular pastime to say that stealing (aka "sharing") is okay because the prices are too high. The product is not food, shelter, or clothing, so it is not a necessity of life. Yet, these people instead of avoiding getting the non-essential product choose to steal the product.

However, I say, more power to fansubs!!!!!!! :) :) :)

And until they rewrite the patent and copyright laws, they also apply to derivitive and copies. So copying of fansubs is therefore legally an act of theft. It is clear that the DMCA thinks so. It is clear that the USA federal courts think so. Many Americans voted for the "business friendly" platform as well, showing a general priority towards favoring solving of problems faced by businesses over the problems faced by individual consumers.

However, I continue to say more power to fansubs!!!!!

Wait until UCITA comes into being in the whole USA. It has been passed and is now under review by individual States. State review is necessarily because it is a revision and extension of the UCC. It allows retroactive elimination of license violations in your computer under the UCC. It also allows some exemptions of responsibility by businesses under the shrink wrap license which they are currently subject to depending on the State.

However, I say with my dying breath as the mpaa/adv gestapo raids my home for the fansub thefts "more power . ... to... fansu..............."

Vermillion777
12-18-2004, 01:22 PM
sure it only affects titles by media factory inc...but does that mean its the end for all? Its just that I noticed recently that there has been a dwindle in the daily fansub release recently of non-media factory inc. titles thats giving me angst after that legal action by them...tsk...ADV must've something to do with this. Anyway, just a rant that I want to get off my chest...cursed ADV bastards

Exodian
12-18-2004, 02:08 PM
hiya guys, mi first post here, i'm pretty new to this site
Had a quick read thru this thread, thought i'd babble a bit.

well, about fansubs, to be honest, i got into anime through them, especially naruto and bleach, and now i buy absolutely tonnes of anime and manga (including all the bleach and naruto stuff that is available over here in england (namely the manga) and that has led me to buying shonen jump and about 7 other manga series regularly, and well as a hell of a lot of anime (the two ways all my money dissappears seem to be either girlfriend or anime related (this more than the first lol)). Thing is, i'm 17, dependant on my parents for money while i study, and don't have a huge amount of money to spend, plus i wouldn't be able to access most of the fansubbed anime around for years, until they got released here, by which time i'd have no time for them (i'd be in university, hopefully, thats if i get the grades) or, heaven forbid, have lost interest it in them. So, i owe a hell of a lot to fansubbers, and have to say, they are great people for doing something so selflessly, and thx to all of them, and hope that none of them get done by some huge corporation, even if they are doing something against the law (which is debatable, by the sounds of it).

My actual point here, waffling aside, i would have never gotten into anime if it wasnt for fansubs, and the same goes for a number of my friends, and wouldn't have bought most of the anime stuff, if any, that i own now. I suspect that stopping fansubs would do more harm than good to the anime industry because of this, and that also could hurt some of the companies involved, if fans decide to boycott etc. So hopefully, all the other anime companies will just laugh and turn away from this incident instead of jumping on the bandwagon and strapping a jet engine to it.

Anyway, cheers for reading.

On an unrelated note, i need some advice- i have a limited hard drive space, and once most of my torrents are finished, i have to clear them out, and can't seed one while downloading another half the time, which makes me feel really guilty. Add to that the fact that my parents limit my internet time nowadays as well, so i'm a bit stuck with that. I know it's not really on topic, but i thought i'd ask while i'm posting. Thx again.

mahouneko
12-19-2004, 05:49 AM
Exodian: (a copy of this will also be messaged over to you in case you don't read it here)
Your thoughts regarding the upload/download status should be referred to the sysadmin of HongFire. What exactly is your internet connection like? You only need a minimum of cable or DSL connection to be able to seed torrents and whatnot. Personally, I use ABC, I click on a list of things that I would like to download and then I go off and do whatever it is that needs to be dealt with. While I am away from my computer, ABC will download everything on the list and seed it for however long I set it to seed. I usually let it seed for about an hour. That way, people can't complain about my "online" time.

AnimeJanai:
If you wish to debate this in terms of economics, you're also forgetting the macroeconomic aspects of it. There are factors such as LABOR, PRODUCTIVITY, PRODUCTION COSTS, MARGINAL COSTS, INVESTMENTS, SAVINGS, NET EXPORTS, CONSUMPTION, etc. The fact of the matter is, there are all kinds of leechers of fansubs. There're the hypocritical types, the sampler types (ones who try out before purchasing), the I-download-everything-because-I-believe-it-is-my-right type, the I-download-what-I-want-to-watch-and-then-delete-it type, etc. The list goes on and on.

Since you are so adamant about the economic feasibility of this, fine, it is proven, time and time again that a market with more options for the consumer(s) will continue to prosper rather than a market with fewer options (think MONOPOLIES). In a monopoly scenario, the company doesn't have to operate at the max. It can cut back its losses by decreasing the quantity of products it makes, cutting back on employment, and increasing the price tag of the product. It's proven to be a WIN-LOSE scenario by just about every major economist worth his value. In a competitive market, companies can't just do whatever they want so they have more incentive to appease the consumers with better products, in more quantities, and so forth. Most competitive markets follow the Nash Equilibrium which dictates that all companies will attempt to maximize their profits by UNDERCUTTING their competitors (refer to PRISONER'S DILEMMA or google Nash Equilibrium). Therefore, more options means better business. For a good reference of this, check out the effects of NAPSTER on the music industry. Before Napster's appearance, music record sales were ALREADY pretty dismal. When Napster came about, music record sales EXPLODED. Then Napster got sued and was shut down by the RIAA. I think of Napster as a radio station on the computer, just that I have more control over what I want to hear. I am unsure of the purpose of Napster's development but its existence was very much what many people wanted, an entity that compiles a list of songs its users are looking for. I would never have known that Stand By Me was a song made for a movie of the same title were it not for my roommate who has the soundtrack on CD. How many people would have been that lucky to find out what song was in which album? Just the same, the Napster and music ordeal shares many parallels with the fansub and anime ordeal.

Edit: I posted this because I was afraid that the server would act funky on me in the middle of typing this.


Mahouneko>>

3. That's essentially how fansubbing started. Not all groups nowadays that start up are like that, but when fansubbing first started, it was like that. Remember AnimeJunkies? They seemed to be in it for the glory and not about promoting anime at all. Just sub faster than any other group.

4. Fansubbing may or may not affect the licensing of a series. A company simply buys what they feel will sell. Ever heard of a series called Outlanders? No one's fansubbing it, but it's been licensed. How about Diamond Dust Drops? Well, it's been licensed. There are many series that aren't highly publicized, doesn't mean they aren't simply going to get licensed.

Shoot, Kaleido Star was licensed before it was even aired or produced for that matter.

6. Anime = Japanese animation. I don't need to explain anything about the essence or whatever. If it's made in Japan, it's anime. Shoot, if a Japanese guy living in Japan draws stick figures, he's created Japanese animation. Is there a real essence to that? No.

3. I know all there is to know about AnimeJunkies. Please do NOT remind me of the arrogant newbie OP called Keno-San. It WAS rather amusing to hear that there was a blatant misinterpretation of "syndicate-related kidnappings of multiple children". Anyone remember "MASS NAKED CHILD EVENT"? I'm sure Kill-Shok had fun with chewing out whoever wrote that.

4. Actually there IS a group that has subbed Outlanders. It's a Johji Manabe work and I'd rather that they sub or license his other series, Rai Thunderjet (aka Legend of GALAXY HEROES). Not to be confused with The Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Quite frankly, Outlanders the manga was actually licensed for about a decade before the anime. I'm pretty sure that I've read it from Dark Horse or something (anyone remember which company holds the license to the manga of Gunsmith Cats?). Froth-Bite subbed Kita-he ~Diamond Dust Drops~, which was originally based on a dating sim game. The opening song of the game is very nice to listen to. Kita-he was more of a Chicken Soup for the Soul type of anime. I can see the need for more of such products given the recent surge of empty fanservice-based animes and more so because of the void of depravity that today's American cartoons provide. I'm like, "What the devil is Spongebob Squarepants and how is that supposed to relate to our life in general?" I get more entertainment value out of THE SIMPSONS and Darkwing Duck than an entire season of Rugrats or whatever 3rd-rate show it is that is entertaining today's youths. I will admit that I can be easily entertained, but it is rather hard to entertain me if the art is also horrible.

Kaleido Star WAS licensed by ADV before it was even produced. Gonzo Digimation had to get some permission to use certain American landmarks in the anime which is where ADV comes in.

6. Corrections: Anime = Japanese animation, entertainment medium that encompasses in greater detail the philosophy, the ideas and ideals, the ART, the lifestyle, etc, of the creator(s) AND of the target society it presents to or represents. THAT is the essence of Anime. You cannot deny that most cartoons that exist in the world are not only very simplistic, but also very empty in meaning.

Looking back at the Disney animations I have watched and own, I see now that The Lion King, Lady and the Tramp, and Beauty and the Beast are truly deserving of the title of DISNEY MASTERPIECE. Another of my personal favorite is the original Land Before Time, a Don Bluth production from WB I believe. Think about it, how many cartoons have YOU watched as a child? Of all the American cartoons that I have watched, only those that I have mentioned have given me the most impression not only in terms of storytelling but also in terms of artwork and concepts discussed. That is so very few. It is like finding the one good book amongst a mountain of emptiness. It is like finding the book, Pride and Prejudice, amongst piles and piles of cheap Don Juan stories.

That's my 2 cents.

Edit: I said I liked AnimeEigo, I would like to correct that, it's actually AnimeWorks that brings out the rather amusing titles. I highly recommend that people try out "If I See You In My Dream". I doubt that anyone has ever subbed this gem before it was licensed by AnimeWorks. Oh, I meant the COMPANY, not the fansub group. That DOES tend to complicate matters.

Longbowwing
12-20-2004, 11:03 PM
the topic is wrong

Media factory never ask animesuki to take down fansub!
they just ask animesuki to take down the animes own by MFI. some listen some dont, as you can see.

some of those people willingly to listen to MFI, the leechers have honor them, but some didnt too.

for those people who have ignore MFI notice, somehow they got honor as hero by some people, some say nothing.

which sides are you in???

krotch
12-21-2004, 12:40 AM
6. You are attempting to look to far into something that doesn't need to be.

It's Japanese animation. It's just animation that's created by the Japanese. There doesn't need to be an essence. There really doesn't need to be anything, cept the Japanese and some pencils.

Shoot, before Americans started using the word anime, the term was used to describe all things animated. From Disney to Japanime, to CG based movies, etc.

You can't deny that many anime that exist in the world are not only very simplistic, but also very empty in meaning.


Longbowwing>>

Some info.


Update - December 10, 2004
It now appears that both Lunar Anime and Wannabe Fansubs have also received the same letter. Lunar Anime as well as Solar and Shining Fansubs have decided to drop projects involving MFI anime series. However several other fansub groups have decided to continue for the moment. Scarywater, which hosts a large amount of anime torrent files (including those of Lunar Anime) has decided to remove all torrents for MFI anime series as well.

mahouneko
12-21-2004, 02:49 AM
Krotch:
Most anime nowadays ARE made along the lines of fanservice and whatnot. I look at Grenadier, and I see a happy curvaceous cowgirl, and I go, "w...t...f..." Meh.

It is rather unfortunate that there won't be anymore School Rumble, I DO so adore that series. I'm actually waiting on Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien to be licensed here in the US so that I won't have to suffer import fees and whatnot.

krotch
12-21-2004, 02:56 AM
Ya, I want Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien also. It's the series you love to hate. Akane Maniax is a little out there, but just cause it goes along with Kimi, I'd purchase it too.

I'll wait until I get to Japan or when it gets licensed in the states.

oink37
12-21-2004, 03:52 AM
Krotch:
Most anime nowadays ARE made along the lines of fanservice and whatnot. I look at Grenadier, and I see a happy curvaceous cowgirl, and I go, "w...t...f..." Meh.

It is rather unfortunate that there won't be anymore School Rumble, I DO so adore that series. I'm actually waiting on Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien to be licensed here in the US so that I won't have to suffer import fees and whatnot.

uh ? I tought WF would continue School Rumble ? they did release ep 9 lately

mahouneko
12-21-2004, 04:02 AM
Apparently you've not heard that WF got a letter from Media Factory, one that's sterner than the general announcement that was sent to AnimeSuki.

krotch
12-21-2004, 04:07 AM
Many fansubbers have dumped MFI series, but WF is still continuing on with School Rumble.

Personally, I am glad that they are continuing, but at the same time, I am disappointed in their actions.

mahouneko
12-21-2004, 04:15 AM
I've just finished reading WF's statement regarding MFI's notice. While I DO AGREE with the notion that it is not within any Japan-based company's power to sue groups in the US, it is only true considering the legal-political conflicts that such actions can bring. What IS happening, however, is the globalization of many markets that now hold power outside of their native country so I am unsure of just how far they intend to bring this case.

Bottom line: WF will ignore the warning and continue to sub School Rumble.

Pro: School Rumble.
Con: Arrrr! Load them animes in me keep, ye landlubbers! The Royal Fleet be comin' here, arrrr!

oink37
12-21-2004, 04:19 AM
Apparently you've not heard that WF got a letter from Media Factory, one that's sterner than the general announcement that was sent to AnimeSuki.

I heard they openly rejected the treath of MFI

(I just read on their website that they didn't even receive directly a MFI letter, well at least that's what they say http://www.wannabefansubs.net/tenma/index.php?showtopic=62&view=findpost&p=718 )

mahouneko
12-21-2004, 04:25 AM
Is it just me or did you not read what I just posted?

pagan
12-21-2004, 04:33 AM
animesuki can go down, fansub existed before animesuki so i don't see why if animesuki go down you think the fansuber will stop...
On the contrary if animesuki go down there will be more user on irc channel hence the fansubers might be happy :)

mahouneko
12-21-2004, 04:36 AM
Not really. I've worked in a group before and slaved my PC as an IRC xdcc/f-serve bot in the channel that I was in, it's not fun to deal with idiots who whine and pine about wanting the next episode to be released sooner. Kick-banning people from the channel for a month is awesome, especially when people are being stupid.

krotch
12-21-2004, 04:39 AM
Copyright laws still give any Japanese based company power outside their country for intellectual property they own.

How do you think the RIAA and MPAA are able to sue ppl outside the US? If these Japanese companies wanted to, they can get with the authority of whatever country and have these ppl taken to court.

Course there are many countries that won't really do anything. The US is not one of them.


Normally if one group stops, another group comes in. Take Gundam Seed for example. US Bandai announced they licensed the series and were releasing it. Many fansubbers stopped, a few kept on. Letters from lawyers were handed out and all fansubbers stopped. Of course, brand new fansubbers popped up to continue the series til the end.

oink37
12-21-2004, 05:37 AM
Is it just me or did you not read what I just posted?

I didn't see it (sorry :p )

desdes
12-21-2004, 06:12 AM
i tried reading whats been posted b4, but anyway they are starting to target BT sites now
some of you may already know that Suprnova.org has been taken down, so who noes what might be next maybe hongfire ><

krotch
12-21-2004, 06:25 AM
Well Suprnova said it was time to simply go down, because it was a pain to run. I'm sure it had something to do with RIAA and MPAA, but it wasn't stated that any of them were bothering Suprnova.

mahouneko
12-21-2004, 05:27 PM
Actually, the MPAA sent Suprnova.org a letter and that's why Suprnova.org went down. Heck, it was even listed in several news articles regarding companies cracking down on BT servers.

nave7693
01-04-2005, 10:38 PM
Let's face it. Almost all the people who watch the fansubs outside Japan would not be much help in generating revenue for the Japanese makers. All companies want to maximize their profit. They will stop distribution that won't do them anything good.
Besides, (hopefully) no one argues that copyright infringement is not illegal, no matter what the excuse is. It IS illegal, and we are doing it knowingly. Accept this life (and its risks), or choose not to live it this way.

starcaptor
01-09-2005, 01:21 AM
Let's face it. Almost all the people who watch the fansubs outside Japan would not be much help in generating revenue for the Japanese makers. All companies want to maximize their profit. They will stop distribution that won't do them anything good.
Besides, (hopefully) no one argues that copyright infringement is not illegal, no matter what the excuse is. It IS illegal, and we are doing it knowingly. Accept this life (and its risks), or choose not to live it this way.


I dont totally agree with when you said companies stop things which dont generate profit or do them any good...ideally this is true, but at the same time, many companies are blindsighted to all of the information. One of the primary rules of econ 1 I remember is that, an individual or gorup can only make a voluntary decision based on having unlimited information. It can be that simply that some of these Japanese companies do not have full insight on the interests of its markets ouside of Japan.

This of course, is just conjecture, and maybe I dont have a clue what they know and dont know.

Pook54
01-17-2005, 06:19 AM
Sorry about ressurecting this thread but after reading 8 pages of this I felt I had to post something. I dont know how it is in other countries but here in england we have practically 0 anime on TV, and whatever is on is normally pretty crap (plus I cant stand the dubs *shiver*). What I'm trying to get at is if there weren't fansubs there would be 0 anime culture in this country. Thats not to say there isn't the occasional DVD around, the first anime I saw was akira on DVD, but the only way I got to this is because my brother has a friend from america who let him borrow the DVD.

The other thing I was wondering is whether companies such as media factory are just in the business for the money or actually care for the materials they are producing. I'm not sure how it works in the mysterious land of television but I know that a lot of authors would prefer their work to be widely appreciated and liked than to just make them a bunch of money.
+meh at krutch, dont have a go at leechers if you've downloaded 40gig yourself.

oink37
01-17-2005, 07:28 AM
Pook, -_- just think about it, majors can sue people in the US, ok ? so there is no difference with media factory acting against fansub (aside the license issue)...
Can't see what's so unbelievable here, it's probably a stupid move, but that's all.