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StarWarsGalaxies
11-08-2006, 10:36 AM
Somehow I got into a convo w/ someone else here about witches. Seeing as it was in a spam thread I started, it got closed. But meh, now I'm bored and have nothing better to do than make another random thread (this time not spam though), so,,,,,,,,,,

think witches exist?
to me, they are like UFOs.

Some ppl seem to think they are out there, but there is no proof of it. And if they DO exist, one would think it would be easy to prove it. And yet it’s not. So I’m a little more then skeptic.

I could see ESP as existing seeing as we do not yet know what the human brain is truly capable of, and perhaps people are confusing that with this subject? I could see that….

Meh, I dunno. But to me, what is even weirder than the legands are the people who believe in then, I have seen ppl who are like, really into this sorta thing. One guy from one of my previous semester’s believed in vampires. He would go on about it, and how they really exist.... even though no one has ever seen one... not even him,,, but OOOHH~~~ that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.....

meh, maybe it's because I'm a computer science major, but my liner thinking doesn’t support a logic that says such things could possibly be real. Not in this world of such major technology where everything in the universe is practically now know (not literally, but you know what I mean).

Kotonoha
11-08-2006, 10:41 AM
Yes they exist, just look at Ann Coulter. http://www.hongfire.com/forum/images/smilies/cs/xd.gif

Kalimutan
11-08-2006, 10:43 AM
There are lots of occult-seekers who are into witchcraft and occult, but there are many more *****es than there are witches.

Hassoon
11-08-2006, 10:43 AM
Of course they exsist there are covens all over the place,not the witches of lore but groups of women, Wicans and Pagans and such.

stukasa
11-08-2006, 11:16 AM
It depends on your definition of a witch. In a modern sense, yes they exist. They exist because some people define themselves as witches. However, if you're thinking about magic potions and flying broomsticks, then no, they don't exist. :p

xirah
11-08-2006, 11:18 AM
but.. i dnt think they exist......... >.<

smogthewise
11-08-2006, 11:21 AM
of couse they do some of my best friends are in the mondern sence but yes they do

Thyran
11-08-2006, 11:41 AM
Don't have kids.

Slyboogie
11-08-2006, 12:09 PM
Don't have kids.

QFT.

But besides that, there was this one thread about Vampires a while back which I have a feeling is going to a rough map of where this thread is going.

smogthewise
11-08-2006, 12:12 PM
Don't have kids.

who me if so that hurts man T_T

Draco888
11-08-2006, 12:16 PM
Yes I believe Witches exist.
But one little comment SWG:
You should have started by giving a definition of what witches are !
Witches = women that know a lot about herbs and healing potions and healing in general ?
Witches = women that are very in tune with the earth ?
Witches = lightning bolts and broomsticks and black cats ?
Witches = women that were too smart for their own good in a patriarchal society ?
....

Because results will vary tremendously according to the definition.

AnimeChickLover
11-08-2006, 01:40 PM
A bag of walnuts ^ ^
wtf is that supposed to mean o.O

Draco888
11-08-2006, 01:48 PM
A bag of walnuts ^ ^
wtf is that supposed to mean o.O
explanation : hmmmm walnuts, I love nuts
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/nuts
I suggest taking a look at the 7th meaning ;D:D

Kouji
11-08-2006, 01:49 PM
If witches do exist things would be more fun & different :D

But it looks as if they do not exist..

sf101
11-08-2006, 06:31 PM
Yeah they exist, much like Ceremonial Magicians, Thelemites, Satanists, Chaotes and various other occult practioners. They practice low magic which is what witchcraft is. It's easy to practice for beginners.

If witches do exist things would be more fun & different :D

But it looks as if they do not exist..I will direct you to this forum
http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/index.php
Still disbelieve?

nony
11-08-2006, 07:08 PM
Reminds me of blair witch project 0_o
I get the laughs when my sister insists that they are real XD
NAH, None are real ... my current state belief

AnimeChickLover
11-08-2006, 10:25 PM
explanation : hmmmm walnuts, I love nuts
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/nuts
I suggest taking a look at the 7th meaning ;D:D

ah ty for the English lesson
I never knew that until now

SniperTak
11-09-2006, 03:10 AM
This is like asking whether god exists or not. He may, or he may not, but we all know he doesnt. His miracles consist of unlikely random events that actually happened(Hey, as long as the percent isnt 0, theres still a chance). Yet alot of people actually believe the bullshit in the bible.
Witches? dont exist. Did santa clause exist? Did the easter bunny? Jesus? Oh, wait scratch that last one(Wouldnt want to get the HF-Religionists on my tail). Witches were just a make-up story created by the church to brand all other religious believers who are non-christian into either devil worshipers or satans minions. All those that worship Baphomet are seen as satanists, when Baphomet is actually a demi-god of fertility and was much like Aphrodites. The Pentagram, is not really a devil symbol, nor is burning wood and dancing around it an actual ritual. People are quick to brand these as witchcraft or witches, who are evil and should be exterminated, thanks to the church and 2000+ years of constant steriotyping/brainwash.

YES, WITCHES DONT EXISTS, AND EVEN IF THEY DID, THEY COULDNT DO ANYTHING OR WE WOULD ALREADY BE LIVING IN A HARRY POTTER LIKE FANTASY WORLD.

zer0kage
11-09-2006, 03:31 AM
GIMME THE WITCHES OF ICE!!!

Well I wish.. *pats the girl on my sig

DoNotPause
11-09-2006, 03:48 AM
Witches what witches? Warts all over face=>burn them
Anime style uber kawaii witches can live

AnimeChickLover
11-09-2006, 04:04 AM
Witches what witches? Warts all over face=>burn them
Anime style uber kawaii witches can live

agreed there
only cute witches like the ones in the anime may live ^ ^

sf101
11-09-2006, 11:13 AM
This is like asking whether god exists or not. He may, or he may not, but we all know he doesnt. His miracles consist of unlikely random events that actually happened(Hey, as long as the percent isnt 0, theres still a chance). Yet alot of people actually believe the bullshit in the bible.
Witches? dont exist. Did santa clause exist? Did the easter bunny? Jesus? Oh, wait scratch that last one(Wouldnt want to get the HF-Religionists on my tail). Witches were just a make-up story created by the church to brand all other religious believers who are non-christian into either devil worshipers or satans minions. All those that worship Baphomet are seen as satanists, when Baphomet is actually a demi-god of fertility and was much like Aphrodites. The Pentagram, is not really a devil symbol, nor is burning wood and dancing around it an actual ritual. People are quick to brand these as witchcraft or witches, who are evil and should be exterminated, thanks to the church and 2000+ years of constant steriotyping/brainwash.

YES, WITCHES DONT EXISTS, AND EVEN IF THEY DID, THEY COULDNT DO ANYTHING OR WE WOULD ALREADY BE LIVING IN A HARRY POTTER LIKE FANTASY WORLD.Wow you have NO idea what your talking about. Witches by biblical standards have existed long before Christianity, take the witch of endor in the bible. The only reason there was a church persecution was because when the bible was translated from the original hebrew they changed he line which reads,"Thou shall not suffer on poisoner to live" Poisoner was improperly translated into witch due to paranoia and stupidity. Witches do exist, just look at the link I posted above.

BTW the baphomet oldest know usage was by the knights of templar as a idol of sorts and satanist don't worship the baphomet.

SniperTak
11-09-2006, 11:48 AM
Wow you have NO idea what your talking about. Witches by biblical standards have existed long before Christianity, take the witch of endor in the bible. The only reason there was a church persecution was because when the bible was translated from the original hebrew they changed he line which reads,"Thou shall not suffer on poisoner to live" Poisoner was improperly translated into witch due to paranoia and stupidity. Witches do exist, just look at the link I posted above. Err, Okay. Witches dont exist. The church did brand everything other than their own rituals as "witchcraft" and held multiple inquisitions to figure out who was a witch and who wasnt. Of course, they all said they werent witches, which made them liers ,and the ones that did confess made them witches... Lose lose situation there. And yes, when christianity was winning the war, they tried to convert all the originating Pagan rituals and demi-gods into either saints or angels, and those that they COULD not convert into witchcraft and devil-wosrhipings.

Wow, nice site. An occult site, to explain the dealings of witchcraft! Haha, This is as funny as watching "satan worshipers" carry around pentagram-shaped pendants. Fukin noobs.


BTW the baphomet oldest know usage was by the knights of templar as a idol of sorts and satanist don't worship the baphomet. My bad, what i meant to say is the Symbol of baphomet, that is the head of a goat, body of a woman, etc... The actual name baphomet is incorect, for the first usage of this was not by the knights templar, but rather before their time. Infact the knights templar were worshiping the baphomet, which had existed before their time.

Satanists to worship the baphomet... Atleast most of the ignorant ones do. The pentagram upside down, can be a representation of baphomet. So yes, satanists DO INFACT worship baphomet.

maumastoks
11-09-2006, 11:51 AM
no. because if they exist, they gonna rule the world using magic... ^^

ShadowRFox
11-09-2006, 03:47 PM
They exist it just that their magic really stuck.

Slyboogie
11-09-2006, 04:02 PM
Err, Okay. Witches dont exist. The church did brand everything other than their own rituals as "witchcraft" and held multiple inquisitions to figure out who was a witch and who wasnt. Of course, they all said they werent witches, which made them liers ,and the ones that did confess made them witches... Lose lose situation there. And yes, when christianity was winning the war, they tried to convert all the originating Pagan rituals and demi-gods into either saints or angels, and those that they COULD not convert into witchcraft and devil-wosrhipings.


Sf101 meant the Bible, not the Church. In Leviticus, Deuteronomy and some of Exodus, witches are mentioned as part of Hebrew law. Don't call people noobs without reading their stuff first.

Hassoon
11-09-2006, 04:25 PM
Kudos to sf101 he is 100% correct about the poisoner thing.First and probably the only time i'll agree with you on anything lol.

solarenemy
11-09-2006, 04:41 PM
I personally know witches. They dont use magic. But instead use herbs and elixers they mix for healing purposes. They are very earth conscience and can cure many things from herbs. The only magic a witch uses is when she imposes her will onto those with a weaker will. This is one of the teqniques they are taught. Witches across the United states number in the several thousand. There are atleast 7 main covens and many off shoots from those. But they arnt what you read about in fantasy or stories. They are just woman who are very knowledgeabble about herbs as medicines and poisons and other purposes. Yes witches are real and are all around us. They just keep their witch lives seperate and secret from their everyday life. Mainly cause most as it has been shown in this thread are unable to except the idea of witches and would only give them a hard time if everyone knew they where a witch.

When you think of a witch, think of a woman who is fluent in the use of herbs for almost anything and not some lady who rides a broom and wears all black.

sf101
11-09-2006, 05:10 PM
Err, Okay. Witches dont exist. The church did brand everything other than their own rituals as "witchcraft" and held multiple inquisitions to figure out who was a witch and who wasnt. Of course, they all said they werent witches, which made them liers ,and the ones that did confess made them witches... Lose lose situation there. And yes, when christianity was winning the war, they tried to convert all the originating Pagan rituals and demi-gods into either saints or angels, and those that they COULD not convert into witchcraft and devil-wosrhipings.How fluffy is this the old "conversion" arguement. I'm guessing you were reading dan brown's garbage to think there was a "war" against paganism. There was no such war. People converted on their own free will(not to say there wasn't any forced but that's not the point) which is why there is so many pagan attributes in christianity. The church let them bring all their traditions which is why they have easter, christmas, ect.


Wow, nice site. An occult site, to explain the dealings of witchcraft! Haha, This is as funny as watching "satan worshipers" carry around pentagram-shaped pendants. Fukin noobs. So a board that encompasses various forms of high magic(hermetics, thelema, enochian), Chaos magic, divination, low magic(witchcraft), satanism, ect. which is populated by people who actually practice & converse about their experences and techniques is "funny"? How ignorant is that statement.


Satanists to worship the baphomet... Atleast most of the ignorant ones do. The pentagram upside down, can be a representation of baphomet. So yes, satanists DO INFACT worship baphomet.Yeah there is zero logic in that statement since most satanist follow Anton LaVey's teaching which in point it's self worship as in seeing one's self as god. Even if you move to Diabolatry(Theistic satanism) they worship the christian devil as spoken of in bible. Demonolatry now that's just demon worship(I reccomend the enns), Luciferianism is esoteric as there is few if any dogma, and Sat/Tanism focuses on the great darkness of before creation. BTW pentagrams have existed for ages in Ceremonial Magic with it's satanic aplication attributed to Anton LaVey who inverted it to stand for carnal desire, life, ect.

Fluffies are annoying. Here's a site that may help you as far as history is concerned.
http://wicca.timerift.net/


They exist it just that their magic really stuck. Eh in order to be successful in most forms of magic you must not have a lust for results. Usually the reason why their magic sucks.

bulletskies
11-10-2006, 05:37 AM
No. We burnt them all.

Pyrus
11-10-2006, 09:29 AM
No. We burnt them all.

QFT - Salem FTW w00t!

but, on a more serious note, personally, I am a pretty huge skeptic of anything apparently "supernatural" and I haven't ever encountered anything remotely close to the like. I also think Astrology is a crock of ****.

Magic these days is often refered to as "illusions" which explains in some measure my point of view.

That said my opinions have often caused some trouble among peers who are, for lack of a better word "superstitious"

I was raised by a devout protestant family so its weird that I ended up as what I would call a Neo-Humanist and skeptic of all superstition.


FOCUS : Witches have not, do not and probably will not exist.

SniperTak
11-10-2006, 10:42 AM
Witches DONT EXIST!!! WEEEEE.

The catholics were afriad of witches, cause they thought thta witchcraft actually WORKED. If witches really had the power, however, im sure they would be conjuring demons and would overun the catholics in a matter of days. Since that never happened, we know witches dont exist.

solarenemy
11-10-2006, 04:58 PM
Witches DONT EXIST!!! WEEEEE.

The catholics were afriad of witches, cause they thought thta witchcraft actually WORKED. If witches really had the power, however, im sure they would be conjuring demons and would overun the catholics in a matter of days. Since that never happened, we know witches dont exist.

Your still thinking of witches as magick users. The witches of today they do exist and the ones I know dont practice magic. They use herbs and elixers for medical and healing purposes. Some will make poisons and potions for various reasons. Some of the potions work and some don't. Some might give you an incantation to say when you use the potion, but this is only as a placebo and to but you in the frame of mind to think the potion is working. So stop confusing the witches of Salem and prior, the ones the church feared. With the ones that exist today.

As I said. One of my female friends and one of her friends are witches and belong to one of the larger covens in the US. Their coven has 1500 members across the US. So if you think they don't exist then you have 1500 women in one of the seven covens in the US that say you are wrong.

SniperTak
11-10-2006, 07:33 PM
Ah, then we have a conflict of definition here. The witch im thinking of conjures demons and makes potions that make your hair stick into your ass. Well then, i guess that makes me a portulius, an advanced species of humans capable of fuking 10 women at once and reading the bible without going to sleep!

Let me ask you this: your withces are ripping off thousands of years of herb medicinry from chinese and other cultures, and frankly dissing them by calling themselves witches. Herbs have been used by doctors from ancient times, and yes, they were doctors. So i dont want to hear about high-school dropouts who think they could get rich off selling herbs they found in a book. And if you think that there couldnt possibly be so many stupid people joining such a gay and obviously scamful group, then Think again. (http://www.scientology.com/)

StarWarsGalaxies
11-11-2006, 12:59 AM
@SA
Are they only womean? Why not men to?
If I chop my penis off* does that mean I can practice magic?


* = hypothetical situation! It's not gonna happen -_-

pogi420
11-11-2006, 01:55 AM
so then what are the diffrence between Shamens and Witches?

gvbn
11-11-2006, 02:01 AM
they exist but they can't
use any magic

bulletskies
11-11-2006, 03:20 AM
^Yeah, they're called women.

solarenemy
11-11-2006, 08:08 AM
@SA
Are they only womean? Why not men to?
If I chop my penis off* does that mean I can practice magic?


* = hypothetical situation! It's not gonna happen -_-




Witches are female. I didnt discuss men because we where discussing witches. However the male version of a witch is a warlock. Warlock and witches don't get along to well however as they accuse each other of using their knowledge for alterior motives.

@Snipertak. So then what of WITCH Doctors. There you have a person who uses herbs and magic as well. Are you going to say they dont exist as well even they nearly every tribe has one?

Witches are just the same and have only eliminated the doctor from their name because not all of their knowledge is used for healing or doctor puposes. They also make poisons and potions for other uses. Why is it so hard to believe there is a group that calls themselves witches?

The fact there is a group rather it be of people that summon demons or just play with chemistry sets that call themselves witches mean that witches do exist. They may not be the type you think of but there is a group around today that call themselves witches so yes they exist. Just not in the capacity that you where thinking of.

bulletskies
11-11-2006, 08:15 AM
They also make poisons and potions for other uses. Why is it so hard to believe there is a group that calls themselves witches?

The fact there is a group rather it be of people that summon demons or just play with chemistry sets that call themselves witches mean that witches do exist. They may not be the type you think of but there is a group around today that call themselves witches so yes they exist. Just not in the capacity that you where thinking of.

Too many games or too much fantasy reading?

solarenemy
11-11-2006, 08:20 AM
Too many games or too much fantasy reading?

Do you not read all the post or just the last few post? I said earlier, I am friends with two witches here in the US that belong to one of the larger of the seven US covens. The coven these ladies belong to are 1500 members strong. I believe in them because I know them and have met some of these witches.

I only play FPS or racing games. Books I read are technology updates, books on lasers and photonics, computers, optical engineering, car sterro, and books that aid in my proffession such as wiring and schematic diagrams. So your game and book theory about me is wrong.

Just live with the fact that things exist in our world that defy logic. There are people who believe in these things and no amount of logic will change their mind. Just as no amount of evidence or opinion promoting the existance of these things will change the minds of those who dont believe in them.

All I can say is I personally know two witches so I believe in them.

pogi420
11-11-2006, 08:33 AM
so a shamen is a male/female but a religious kind of withch right?

sf101
11-11-2006, 08:34 AM
If it's summoning you seek you there are plenty of manuals on how to do so.
The Key of Solomon
Lemegeton
Grand Grimore
John Dee's Five books of Mystery by John Dee
The practice of Magical Envokation by Franz Bardon
These books can teach you the way to envoke demons, elementals, ect. and YES they do work. Envocation is part of higher magick however.

Solarenemy: They're in denile and don't know a thing about magick. Their too busy with ideas of magic in anime(the no rules garbage and little girls in skimpy outfits) to understand the real thing or acknowledge anyone using it even if the witches you speak of say they don't.

gvbn
11-11-2006, 08:44 AM
so a shamen is a male/female but a religious kind of withch right?
no. shamans are drug addicts

pogi420
11-11-2006, 08:51 AM
no. shamans are drug addicts

ahh thats why they have pipes ans stuff, i sure am getting myself one!

SniperTak
11-11-2006, 06:04 PM
Become a household shaman to ward your girlfriends away! Dont get laid, get paid! In just 3 easy 2 hour sessions, Snipertak here will show you the tricks of the trade. Everything from making smoke come out of a fire, to getting warts on your face to look legit! Dont stall, call now!

axelmonster
11-12-2006, 12:38 PM
So, because people say that they are witches and can use magic, they can? Wow, cool, I have to try it.

I'm a giant robot and I can trample cities with my feet! Aaaaany second now... just wait for it... huh, nothing is happening...

SniperTak
11-12-2006, 01:36 PM
Witches, or shamans for that matter dont grant wishes to Pedophiles. Sorry.

solarenemy
11-12-2006, 01:43 PM
So, because people say that they are witches and can use magic, they can? Wow, cool, I have to try it.

I'm a giant robot and I can trample cities with my feet! Aaaaany second now... just wait for it... huh, nothing is happening...

Uhm I beleive we explained to you that REAL witches DON'T use magick.

SniperTak
11-12-2006, 05:15 PM
Depends on your definition of witch. Some do, some dont.

DK3411
11-13-2006, 08:10 AM
I was under the impression that Shamans are people who are essentially animalistic and elementalistic in nature. Meaning they regard the happenings of the universe around them as the shift and interaction of the 4 fundamental elements of life (Earth, Air, Fire and Water).

Correct me if I'm wrong about this though. I've always been fascinated about their culture and practices (like, do they perform human sacrifices?) but always found too little time to do some research about them.

solarenemy
11-13-2006, 04:49 PM
Depends on your definition of witch. Some do, some dont.

How would you know? You claim that no witch of any kind exist. So I guess you do believe and just want to argue or you would not have made this statement.

Freakin closet believers are annoying. Just come out and be one with the believers already.

MegaMick
11-14-2006, 04:19 PM
I hope they do exist, because they're a nice turn-on.
They are probably so... hmmm... horny! =D~~

sssr
11-14-2006, 08:33 PM
A couple things:

1) There has never been a deity called Baphomet. "The demon Baphomet" that the Knights Templar were accused of having worshipped was in fact a mistransliteration of Muhammad's name (possibly of the Sufis' Bab Muhammad). A lot of the original Templars, having Crusaded in the Middle East, became acculturated to Islam. Some had themselves initiated into the Muslim Sophistic school. Muslim Sophists continued a Greek tradition started by the Neo-Platonic school of Plotinus in Roman times (which found its Christian manifestation in the Gnostic schools), culminating in the mystical Central Asian Sufi movement. However, Muslim Sophists have existed long before even Sufism came into being in its present from. When the Templars returned to Europe, those members who studied the Sophistic philosophy developed their own Christian, but not Gnostic, version. This version of Sophism is still alive today, albeit watered down and adjusted for doctrine, in the teachings of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits). The problem with the Templars is that their "purer" version of Sophism, being derived from the Muslim school, obviously had to include Muhammad as a teacher. It made them easy targets for a Church lusting after Templar wealth. Thus the Baphomet episode.

2) The conversion of Pagans into Christianity did actually result from persecution. Two major persecutions against Paganism occured during Roman times, that of Constantius II (d. 361) and that of Theodosius I (d. 395). The first occured when Christianity was but a minority belief in the Empire, and was ended by Constantius' successor Julian the Apostate. The second was easier because by then Christianity had become a majority religion. Putting that aside, the fact remains that more Christians than Pagans died in the hands of the Church during the many anti-heresy persecutions. Thus, while it is true that Pagans were persecuted into embracing Christianity, the truth is that Christians themselves had always been the main victims of Church persecution. It must be noted that "heresy" originally meant "preaching a CHRISTIAN doctrine different from that of the official Church". Pagans were not heretics since they hadn't been Christian to begin with. They fall into the category of heathens.

3) A lot of Pagan traditions and thinking got into the Christian Church, yes, but not because the Pagans brought them there when they converted. The real reason is because the current Church was the Church of Rome. During Roman times, Pagan philosophy predominated in intellectual discourse, and Pagan traditions were interlaced into Imperial tradition. Thus, in order to become a national religion (in fact, just in order to be taken seriously), the Christian Church had to educate their clergy in Pagan thought and teach them to perform the religious offices related to the Emperor of Rome. This is why, when Julian the Apostate issued an edict denying Christians the right to study Pagan ideas, it was the conservative bishops who rebelled. In Julian's defense, he was actually just being ironic as usual. Julian grew up with the selfsame conservative bishops teaching him that the Bible is the Only Book; that it has all the knowledge that a man needs in life. So, he reasoned, let the Christians study only their Book if that's really their belief. By issuing the edict, Julian effectively exposed the Church's hypocrisy but unfortunately turned it more Roman than Christian in the process. In the backlash after Julian's death, the Roman Catholic Church revamped itself into a staunch defender of traditional ROMAN values and traditions, even if these were really derived from Pagan culture.

4) A witch in the original Biblical tradition is basically a female shaman or healer WHO USES HER SKILLS TO DO EVIL. When "poisoner" was "mistranslated" into "witch", it wasn't. You have to understand that, in the original Hebrew culture, a poisoner IS a witch. "Poisoner" here does not refer to a person who uses poison, but to a person skilled in the use of poison. There's an important distinction here. People skilled in the use of poison would logically be a subset of people skilled in the use of medicine. Thus, a poisoner in the Biblical tradition is a medicine man or woman who uses his/her skills to do evil. If female (as is usually the case), then she's by definition a witch. It must be noted that nowhere in the Bible can be found a cackling hag flying on a broom. The ancient Israelites had a more down-to-earth view than ours on what constitutes a witch.

5) There are many women in the Bible who are described as having a knowledge of medicine or even of being trained in arts and sciences normally not accessible to women. Most of these women are revered and even described in terms usualy attributed to saints and prophets. Heck, John the Baptist's mom was one. Thus, the Bible does make distinctions between witches and female healers. However, even in the Bible there are references to the fear ordinary people had of either variety. A female healer can easily turn into a witch, after all. It was deemed better not to have the skill in the first place than risk letting one who has it abuse it. It's the same twisted logic the Church used in the witchhunts. In fact, the rationalization isn't that far off the mark. Women, being generally the oppressed half of society, were more likely than men to use special skills to free themselves of male tyranny. This was especially true under a Church that prohibited divorce. Often, the only solution is to kill an abusive husband with poison. The Church reacted to a real threat the only way they knew how, because they simply can't figure out the real reason things got to such a sorry state.

6) Witches do exist, but grow up guys! They don't fly around riding brooms. Ironically, that image only appeared after many centuries of accumulated error in witch lore; sometime around the 17th century in England. It's actually MODERN (well, relatively modern) people at the dawn of the industrial age who created the ridiculous idea. The people living with real witches had a better idea of what they were capable of.

sssr
11-14-2006, 09:26 PM
Actually, one more thing:

7) The image of Satan as we know it today (you know, the goat 'n stuff) was originally conceived by the Gnostic schools as a representation of Ialdabaoth, the false God of the material realm. Hebrews know Him as [tetragrammaton], the One True God. You see, the Gnostics believe that the material world we live in is but a pale imitation of the true universe that exists outside the void of our prison, Ialdabaoth's "birth cocoon". Therefore, the God of a material world is but an imposter trying to imitate the true universe but failing miserably, resulting in an imperfect world full of misery. By that definition, [tetragrammaton], the God of Israel and of the majority Christians, is therefore not the True God (Aeon Teleos) but a demonic, malevolent being. While this may sound like some sort of blasphemy or heresy, it's surprisingly a view borne out in the Bible itself. If you read Paul's Letters, especially those to the Hebrews, there are traces of this philosophy there. Paul likes to represent the Church as a mere earthly, imperfect, representation of the true communion. When he speaks of the mysteries of faith, he is parroting the Neoplatonists, and there are times when he stopped short of saying outright that the old God of the Jews was not to be followed, for now Jesus had come the path to the One True God is open through Him (and only Him). The Gnostics took this one step further, completely denouncing the God of Israel as a phony and labeling Him with (what we now think of as) a Satanic image.

The irony, then, is that when Satanists look upon the image of the goat, they're actually worshipping the Christian God.:D

sssr
11-14-2006, 09:49 PM
I was under the impression that Shamans are people who are essentially animalistic and elementalistic in nature. Meaning they regard the happenings of the universe around them as the shift and interaction of the 4 fundamental elements of life (Earth, Air, Fire and Water).

This means you've been playing too many JRPGs. The real shamans worship SPIRITS. They believe that inanimate objects and animals have spirits that must be appeased for the well-being of the people. It's not the objects and animals themselves that are revered but the spirits residing in them. The image that shamans possess a physically systematic belief structure (four elements and stuff) is not only wrong, it's ridiculous. Most shamans don't even get as far as comprehending the concept of elements. The concept of the four elements as we understand it today came from ancient Greek, developed by urbane philosophers who based their system on physical observations. It's really older than that (originating in Sumeria), but the Greeks were the first to formulate it in the current recognizable form. They're way more advanced intellectually than the shaman who sees a river overflowing and praying to the spirit of the RIVER not to get angry. If they saw a lake overflowing, they'd pray to the spirit of the lake.

The conception that shamans have a systematic belief structure consistent with physical phenomenon is actually a rather racist one. It was first propounded by European colonialists who, on first contact with Asiatic philosopher-priests, labeled them shamans out of disrespect for their intellectual achievements. By this method, Hindu Brahmins, Buddhist saints, Taoist priests, and even Confucianist masters all got called shamans in spite of the extensive and intellectually advanced philosophies they base their teachings on. It was through this method of degradation that complex systems like the Taoist I-Ching and the Buddhist Tripitaka found themselves relegated into folk superstition status. In fact, some of the Asiatic "shamanistic" systems are well-rounded philosophies millennia older than the oldest Western philosophies, and sure as hell many times older than Christianity.

Shamanism is a purer, more chaotic form of spiritualism. It's not bounded by intellectual discourse the way most modern beliefs are. Shamanism's strength lies in its ability to interact with nature on a personal level without the limitations of doctrine, prejudice, or even conscious thought. To equate shamanism to philosophical spiritualism is doing both a disfavor. Shamans are free spiritualists, and philosphers are intellectuals. The two simply don't, and can't, mix.

fkrdl
11-14-2006, 10:10 PM
dood we have a useful little something called the edit button dood no need to dubble...no triple post

edit:
I was under the impression that Shamans are people who are essentially animalistic and elementalistic in nature. Meaning they regard the happenings of the universe around them as the shift and interaction of the 4 fundamental elements of life (Earth, Air, Fire and Water).

Correct me if I'm wrong about this though. I've always been fascinated about their culture and practices (like, do they perform human sacrifices?) but always found too little time to do some research about them.


sounds like chinese magic to me Qi and all that exept its fire,water,earth,metal,and wood but I wont go into that right now>:D

sf101
11-14-2006, 10:17 PM
The irony, then, is that when Satanists look upon the image of the goat, they're actually worshipping the Christian God.:D
Not exactly the goat can be traced back to Azazel in the bible which is where the term scape goat comes from. I'm guessing that's where Gnostics got the idea from.

All in all a very excellent post sssr except for the satanist woshiping a goat image. Few Satanist actually worship external dieties.

SniperTak
11-15-2006, 02:39 AM
How would you know? You claim that no witch of any kind exist. So I guess you do believe and just want to argue or you would not have made this statement.

Freakin closet believers are annoying. Just come out and be one with the believers already. The whiches that i believe in dont exist.


1) There has never been a deity called Baphomet. "The demon Baphomet" that the Knights Templar were..... them easy targets for a Church lusting after Templar wealth. Thus the Baphomet episode. Thanks, i knew that. That is why i said "oops, not baphomet." I meant the pagan gods, with the head of a goat and the body of a human, is often seen as a fertility god.


2) The conversion of Pagans into Christianity did actually result from persecution. Two major persecutions.... were not heretics since they hadn't been Christian to begin with. They fall into the category of heathens. Never said they didnt. The conversion of pagan rituals were also incorperated into christinatiy, to lure the already-believers into thinking that their god is actually the christian god. Most of the pagan rituals or stuff that could not be converted to christina religions were ofted into heresy. But there are some stuff that was converted into christianity, that started off as a completely different religion.


3) A lot of Pagan traditions and thinking got into the Christian Church, yes, but not because the Pagans brought them there when they converted. Again, i didnt say they were. The christians assimilated the pagan rituals into their church.

Never know what a satanist worships, since im not one myself, nor do i join or read satanist forums.

yeah, and use the edit button SSSR. No need to triple post.

Tyronial
11-15-2006, 05:37 AM
*Flips a coin*............Yes! They exsist!

Frozen Frog
11-15-2006, 10:23 PM
I know witches exist, and i believe ninjas exist too!
Most witches are portrayed as dark magic users or involved with twisted research in favor for personal gains.
However, in the old times witches are infact close to alchemists who plays with gunpowder, metal and ingredients not included in their junior chemistry set. Only that witches uses raw ingredients which would freak anyone out and label them as witches.
( ninja's somewhat unrelated yet i believe ninjas are everywhere) :grin:

sssr
11-15-2006, 11:04 PM
Sorry for the triple post.


sounds like chinese magic to me Qi and all that exept its fire,water,earth,metal,and wood but I wont go into that right now

Chinese geomancy, of which Feng Shui is the most popular - but not only - form, is not a shamanistic system. It's derived from Taoist teachings as delineated in the Book of Change (I-ching). It's a highly intellectuallized belief system that was based on millenia of Chinese philosophical discourse. Much of "Chinese magic" as some prefer to describe it, is actually a metaphorical and allegorical representation of observed natural phenomena. It ranks closer to the Platonic cave wall allegory than it does to animistic shamanism. The reason a lot of people see it as mumbo-jumbo is because of the perversion of Taoist philosophy under the "Five pecks of rice" cult near the end of the Eastern Han dynasty (c. 190 AD). Three Kingdoms fans might recognize the names Zhang Jue and Zhang Lu. These "Master Zhangs" were the progenitors of a hereditary priesthood of a religion that purports itself based on the doctrines espoused by the philosopher Lao Zi: Taoism. In fact, Lao Zi's system is not a belief system at all. It's a complex mathematical treatise attempting to link observations of natural phenomenon to a scientific (meaning mathematically rigorous) system of predictive simulation. It's an ancient version of computational simulation, if you will. The problem with Taoism is that the Zhangs expounded this system as fortune-telling magic. Worse, they treated it as a COMPLETE system, when in fact it wasn't. Lao Zi set down the general rules of what could have become the Chinese version of natural philosophy, but Taoism perverted it into a tool for misguiding the masses. The end result was stagnation of Chinese scientific thought for the next 2,000 years.

There was a shamanistic form of belief in China, originating from the Xia and Shang dynasties. This form of shamanism recognizes the worship of spirit animals and totems. Chinese legends recount how the merging of clan totems (itself an inseparable element of shamanism) during the unification of Xia under Huang Di (the Yellow Emperor) created that syncretic, mythical animal beloved of RPG fans everywhere: long, the Dragon. Chinese shamanism was the original belief system of dynasties up to the Zhou. However, during the Spring and Autumn period, gradual changes emerged resulting from the divisions of power between the dukes of the Zhou principalities where the shamans were pushed aside in favor of a Royal cult. Instead of worshipping spirits of inanimate objects and animals, the kings of Zhou instituted a system of ancestral veneration, possibly as a backlash to their diminishing powers. By forcing the dukes to offer sacrifices to Zhou ancestors, the Zhou may have hoped to restore some semblance of unity while strengthening their position. The result was the opposite. Dukes began to view the right to venerate their own ancestors as a mark of royalty and demanded it of the Zhou kings. By the time of the Warring States, Chinese shamanism had all but been abolished in favor of ancestral veneration, or worship. Every king of the Warring States viewed the right to venerate ancestors as an inalienable royal prerogative, and you see this throughout Chinese history, when the first thing defeated rulers would put forward as a condition for surrender is the continuation of their right to provide offerings to the ancestral temple.

Anime fans might recall Fushigi Yuugi. Those four animals (and their priestesses) are what's left of the Chinese shamanistic cults.


Not exactly the goat can be traced back to Azazel in the bible which is where the term scape goat comes from. I'm guessing that's where Gnostics got the idea from.

Yes and no. The IMAGERY of the goat predates even the Bible. You can find it as far back as ancient Sumeria, where it represented one of the many manifestations of the entity/deity we know as Baal. The specific IMAGE of Satan, as in the drawing of the half-man-half-goat with a pitchfork, came from the Gnostics. It's actually inspired more by Greek and Persian mythology than the Bible.

The term scapegoat didn't really come from the Bible. In the Middle East goats tend to raze the ground they fed upon, since they eat everything down to the roots. As a result, when farmers saw a goat on his property he'd grab the nearest stick and beat it up, often blaming it for everything from failed harvests to dried wells (which the goat obviously had nothing to do with). The English term was derived from similar roots, since the goats that originally lived in England came from Mediterranean stock and behaved similarly despite the relative abundance of food. Sheep are better behaved and generally more useful.


Never said they didnt. The conversion of pagan rituals were also incorperated into christinatiy, to lure the already-believers into thinking that their god is actually the christian god. Most of the pagan rituals or stuff that could not be converted to christina religions were ofted into heresy. But there are some stuff that was converted into christianity, that started off as a completely different religion.

Oh, I see what you mean now. When I hear Pagan, I usually think of the Hellenistic variant, not the traditional European ones. Yes, in that case you're right. Those Pagan traditions came from voluntary conversions.

angel34160
11-16-2006, 12:30 AM
Did santa clause exist? Did the easter bunny? Jesus? Oh, wait scratch that last one(Wouldnt want to get the HF-Religionists on my tail). Witches were just a make-up story created by the church to brand all other religious believers who are non-christian into either devil worshipers or satans minions.

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=38

maybe you don't know all, yes maybe is a story enlarged by the stupid belivers and all that cra** that you might think but just because you never seen it it doesnot exist? in mi life i never seen japan so doesnot exist
This has become a matter of fate and looks you guys dont have any so think what you whant

just for every body knows i dont belive in santa or anythig

SniperTak
11-16-2006, 12:37 AM
Santa clause is based on Saint nicholas. I know that. However, santa clause himself does not exist, nor does he go around eating cookies and drinking milk while dropping through chimneys and dropping presents... Saint nicholas was a charitable person, but santa clause... motives unknown.

Did you know that Santa clasue has an archnemesis?

I agree, just becuase you havent seen it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. However, if you havent seen it, doesnt mean it does exist. Again, back to Santa clause. Saint nicholas existed, but santa clause does not. Ask 100 people, and 99 will tell you about what they think santa clause would be like if he existed. And those 99 views will all be based on steriotypical stuff(reindeer, red clothes with white fluffy cuffs, white beard, flys around going through chimneys). Yet none of thoese 100 people will believe that santa exists, because its just not possible. Logic tells us its impossible, and our brains tell us they cant exist.

Same with witches. Believing in witches is like believing in Santa.

If someone told me that japan was filled with magical reindeers that could fly, and was hot all year long, except every other year a massive winter comes where candies fall from the sky, i wouldnt believe in japan either. Your definition on something existing is based solely on whether its believable or not.

One easy to digest conversion of pagan symbols into christianity is the Sun god(whether that be Rah, or any other sun god out htere) into the Halo above Saints and jesus. That halo is actually a representation of the sun.

sssr
11-16-2006, 05:34 AM
One easy to digest conversion of pagan symbols into christianity is the Sun god(whether that be Rah, or any other sun god out htere) into the Halo above Saints and jesus. That halo is actually a representation of the sun.

Specifically of Sol Invictus, The Unconquerable Sun, also known to the Hellenes and Romans as King Apollo, Helios, and at one point Heliogabalus/Elagabalus. There's a funny story about that. It turns out that Constantine the Great, the - supposedly - first Christian emperor of Rome, spent most of his mortal life worshipping "the Highest God". He's most likely not referring to the Christian God, though, but rather to his Roman counterpart Sol Invictus. To this extent, Constantine liked to be portrayed, especially on coins, as having the halo of Sol Invictus over his head; a tradition continued by the Church but applied now not ONLY to emperors (all Byzantine emperors consistently maintained the halo in official depictions) but also to humble saints. In Constantine's special case, he was so obsessed with the imagery of his beloved god that at one point he started wearing punk-rock-style bright orange wigs, so as to better imitate the god. Julian had a whole lot of fun mocking this particular aspect of his predecessor's vanity in The Caesars.


Did you know that Santa clasue has an archnemesis?

Santa Clause is the title of Tim Allen's stupid movie. The guy's name is Santa Claus. That aside, I didn't know Santa had an archnemesis. Mayhap you're refering to the Black Pete? If so, he's not Santa's nemesis but his original assistant (before the sanitized American elves). In the old story, Santa dispenses the gifts and Black Pete grabs all the naughty children and dumps them into Santa's now-empty sack to be carried away for an eternity of hardship and toil at the north pole. Ironically, the secret to Santa's success seems to be slave labor.

solarenemy
11-16-2006, 04:35 PM
I think it all depends on how you perceive logic. My logic dictates unless it is proven Not to exist then it exist. I dont need proof of its existence to believe in it. The fact no one can prove witches don't exist is enough for me. Also the fact I know two who practice witchcraft and belong to a coven is proof enough for me. I don't need every thing in black and white. I enjoy living in the grey and relize that there is grey in our world and somethings must be excepted as faith.

linkinparkks
11-16-2006, 05:13 PM
Just wondering,how come were talking about santa,
he's not a witch..not that i know of though

angel34160
11-17-2006, 02:45 AM
Ok the poll has get out of course because this has become a discution of belive or not in stereotypes because we areno't talking about if santa exist or not is if we belive in the santa that we have been toll about because i never belived in him because in mexico we dont belive in him
So do you belive in the whitches that you have been toll that exist maybe you know the one in the broom or the one whit the herbs and suff so it resumes to the point of view of each one I guess that the best answer for me is ... A bag of wallnuts

And i won't tell you that japan is filled with magical reindeers that could fly, and was hot all year long, except every other year a massive winter comes where candies fall from the sky,
But i can tell you that there exist a tipe of machines that looks like human and can !!!!walk!!!!! in 2 !!!!!legs!!!!! they call those robots Ive never seen one and betside of all there some type of giant wasp bigger than 6 bees ( i think ) do you belive me?

Yes I did know that Santa has an archnemesis
He is ...The Grinch :p

SniperTak
11-17-2006, 09:30 AM
Santa claus... Okay. Sorry, Im not sure how to spell things like that. The important thing is that my message got through, and you understand which Santa im talking about(as supposed to Santa maria or sumthing xD).

Gud for you, solar enemy. No one has yet to prove that God exists, yet we still see many who fight in the name of god... What exactly are they fighting for then? Piff.
Yeah, there are always self-claimers. I can claim that my dad was einstien, and i went to harvard, but it wouldnt make it true. On top of that, you couldnt disprove me. The same goes with those "witches". Once a pathetic nutjob reads into this stuff and believe he is a witch, nothing you do or say can stop him. He WANTS to believe.

Well, we were talking about santa, because people dont believe in him when they hit a certain age. This is becuase, of course, he doesnt exist in real life. Just like witches.

To angel34160: Yes i would believe you, since im typing infront of a computer. Just becuase you dont understand something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. But, no one would believe me if i said that japan was filled with magical reindeers that could fly, because EVERYONE knows the mechanics of flight, or atleast the basic stuff about flight, and know that without some kind of jet propulsion system, a reindeer couldnt fly.

Bring a computer back in time to say, 4000 years ago. Even 400 years. People will think that its magical.

The grinch is a santa wannabe. He was illiterate, and didnt know that santa GAVE presents away instead of TAKING them away. :P

scarletfira
11-17-2006, 08:48 PM
This thread reminds me of Charmed. I used to be so hooked onto that show before the eldest sister left. No I don't believe in witches, but if they were to exist, I think they'd be like ppl in Charmed instead of wearing pointed hats and flying with broomsticks.

angel34160
11-19-2006, 02:43 PM
To angel34160: Yes i would believe you, since im typing infront of a computer. Just becuase you dont understand something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. But, no one would believe me if i said that japan was filled with magical reindeers that could fly, because EVERYONE knows the mechanics of flight, or atleast the basic stuff about flight, and know that without some kind of jet propulsion system, a reindeer couldnt fly.

Bring a computer back in time to say, 4000 years ago. Even 400 years. People will think that its magical.

So what you are typing infront of a computer and? that computer knows everything about phisics
Im just sayin that there are some much stuff that is unexplainable even in modern sience how could you know that there are not any other way of propulsion that just jets maybe the brooms are posible but the people that saw that device thought "Hey that looks like a broom they fly on brooms" (talking abouth witches) im not gona make you change of idea i know that for you its imposible to fly on a broom for me too
But i just wanth that you thougt that its posible that some tipe of been could fly on some thing like a broom and get confused not because i think that just because is posible
because a bunch of people know that the earth was flat time ago it was
because a bunch of people thought that anything hevier that air couldno't fly nothing flew
because a bunch of people now think that anything can't travel faster than light haven't prove it yet but they think it is ok
just because you dont think that there are some kind of interdimensional existence of a superior been that is the responsable of the creation of humans
or some way for plopulsion betisede jets
or that a simple human cano't make what he whants whit the energy that alot of brain cells create is posible that create a field of energy capable of dispel the gravety field sorrounding him makin him capable of fly siting on a broom (i would prefer a chair)
or making potion on base that he feel the propeties of every plant every rock every animal even is mother earth
but you havent prove it yet
sience is not perfect if sience fiction is the way of see the sience of future the leyends are the way of see is past
i don belive in witches or santa or even in virus but there a way for that exist so a wuldno't say that doesno't exist i just going to don't belive until i see and even then i going to doubt how is make just because im curious :)
thanks SniperTak is fun to fhigt whit you erreehhmmm i mean discus this thread whit you :p (just joking)

Fury161
11-19-2006, 03:18 PM
No doubt man, a bag of walnuts.

MegaMick
11-19-2006, 03:52 PM
This thread reminds me of Charmed. I used to be so hooked onto that show before the eldest sister left. No I don't believe in witches, but if they were to exist, I think they'd be like ppl in Charmed instead of wearing pointed hats and flying with broomsticks.

Hmmm, those are hot, but I wouldn't dislike the ones with pointed hats and flying on broomsticks either. It must be because of the post-halloween period, but I think witches are hot! :D

SniperTak
11-19-2006, 04:44 PM
So what you are typing infront of a computer and? that computer knows everything about phisicsOkay, Was there a question in there?


Im just sayin that there are some much stuff that is unexplainable even in modern sience how could you know that there are not any other way of propulsion that just jets maybe the brooms are posible but the people that saw that device thought "Hey that looks like a broom they fly on brooms" (talking abouth witches) im not gona make you change of idea i know that for you its imposible to fly on a broom for me too No, its not possible to fit a jet propulsion system onto a broomstick to make it fly a human into the air.


But i just wanth that you thougt that its posible that some tipe of been could fly on some thing like a broom and get confused not because i think that just because is posible Nice word. BTW, i cant really understand half of what you say.


because a bunch of people know that the earth was flat time ago it was Fair enough. But in the past people thought that:
1. The earth was flat
2. Witches existed
But now, we konw that
1. The earth is not flat
2. Witches dont exist.
We cannot dis-disprove something.


because a bunch of people thought that anything hevier that air couldno't fly nothing flew I dont think anyone knew about air, before they could make things fly.
BTW, this is wrong. Birds ARE OBVIOUSLY heavier than air, since people ATE birds. Yet no one wonders why birds can fly.


because a bunch of people now think that anything can't travel faster than light haven't prove it yet but they think it is ok Its not possibel to reach 0 kelvin, or go under it. Some things are just not possible.
Is it possible to chop off your head and sitll be able to live?
Is it possible to remove your brain and sitll be able to write a math test?
Is it possible to chop off both your balls but still produce sperm?


just because you dont think that there are some kind of interdimensional existence of a superior been that is the responsable of the creation of humans Oh, i believe there is some kind of superior being. Although, i wouldnt say they "created" humans, since humans EVOLVED.


or some way for plopulsion betisede jets THERE ARE OTHER PLOPULSIONS BESIDE JETS. WTF, ARE YOU AN IDIOT, A JET ISNT THE ONLY WAY TO FLY YOU ASSHOLE.


or that a simple human cano't make what he whants whit the energy that alot of brain cells create is posible that create a field of energy capable of dispel the gravety field sorrounding him makin him capable of fly siting on a broom (i would prefer a chair) Again, can you remove your brain and sitll be able to finish a math test and do well on it?


or making potion on base that he feel the propeties of every plant every rock every animal even is mother earth Wtf... You read too many comics.

but you havent prove it yet Oh yes i have.


sience is not perfect if sience fiction is the way of see the sience of future the leyends are the way of see is past Science fiction does not include Witches.


i don belive in witches or santa or even in virus but there a way for that exist so a wuldno't say that doesno't exist i just going to don't belive until i see and even then i going to doubt how is make just because im curious :) You dont believe in viruses... Okay. Have fun dying by something you dont believe in.


thanks SniperTak is fun to fhigt whit you erreehhmmm i mean discus this thread whit you :p (just joking)Okay, This isnt evena discussion.
You take unknown words that are beyond your comprehension, stick them together, and hope they can fly. A WINNAR IS YOU.

kthx.

Xebi
11-19-2006, 04:56 PM
Wiccans - bullcrap ^_^
Witches/magic users, possibly.

I don't know what exists and what we should call it, I know however about
unexplainable stuff, like me being able to predict the death my grandfather,
the life in the tornado in America and several other stuff.

Hell, I've even gotten someone to commit suicide...

I'm sure people could find a logical explenation for most magic tricks,
but that's not the point, casting magic is to reach a goal or get something
to happen... wether you see something fly to reach that goal, or a fair chain
of natural events.

It's still reaching your goal, and in some believes.. that's called magic, and
I've gotten to be able to perform many of those kinds of magic myself, though
I don't believe in witches or anything. Just in hard work and being able to
manipulate reality into going the course you want to.

Things I believe in, are the things I witnessed myself first hand ^_~

sssr
11-19-2006, 06:22 PM
But now, we konw that
1. The earth is not flat
2. Witches dont exist.
We cannot dis-disprove something.

Yes you can. Einstein thought Halley's observation of spatial motion disproved his concept of the spatial expansion coefficient and promptly eliminated it from his equation. It did, actually, but only because Halley was looking at the wrong timeframe and Einstein limited himself to the existence of a dynamically stable (non-expanding) universe. We now know that there IS an expansion coefficient and that the universe is not dynamically stable. It's not the first time something has been dis-disproved through experimentation and the appearance of new data. While physics tend not to see significant occurence of such instances, history and anthropology (which are the branches of science most pertinent to this discussion) are full of such examples:
1. Troy was a myth - disproved by Schliemann - dis-disproved by modern archaeology (while there is a city where Troy should be, it was only a village at the time Troy happened and was not destroyed by a war).
2. Minoan Greeks (per Homer) performed animal sacrifice - disproved for the past 4 decades by archaeological finds - dis-disproved by better analysis of selfsame finds.
3. Aztec (and Incan) human sacrifice - disproved by excavation of Aztec and Incan temples - dis-disproved by excavation of nearby mass graves.
4. Shang dynasty existed - disproved by archaeology (19th century) - dis-disproved by oracle bones (19th c.) and better archaeology (late 20th).

Bottomline is, science is in essence an ongoing process of zetetic elench. Science does not work by "proving" or "disproving" anything permanently, but by continuously refuting accepted "facts" by way of consistent and methodical inquiry.

MegaMick
11-19-2006, 06:23 PM
Xebi is a witch... Then... There are witches! :D

My witch-laying fantasy might become a reality!
Xebi, is you a hot witch? or just hot? or just witch?
:neko:

Chill guys, witches are not really science :p

@sssr, there's this crazy neighboor that I have that keeps dis-disaproving the fact that the earth is flat. :D

Xebi
11-19-2006, 10:45 PM
Yes you can. Einstein thought Halley's observation of spatial motion disproved his concept of the spatial expansion coefficient and promptly eliminated it from his equation. It did, actually, but only because Halley was looking at the wrong timeframe and Einstein limited himself to the existence of a dynamically stable (non-expanding) universe. We now know that there IS an expansion coefficient and that the universe is not dynamically stable. It's not the first time something has been dis-disproved through experimentation and the appearance of new data. While physics tend not to see significant occurence of such instances, history and anthropology (which are the branches of science most pertinent to this discussion) are full of such examples:
1. Troy was a myth - disproved by Schliemann - dis-disproved by modern archaeology (while there is a city where Troy should be, it was only a village at the time Troy happened and was not destroyed by a war).
2. Minoan Greeks (per Homer) performed animal sacrifice - disproved for the past 4 decades by archaeological finds - dis-disproved by better analysis of selfsame finds.
3. Aztec (and Incan) human sacrifice - disproved by excavation of Aztec and Incan temples - dis-disproved by excavation of nearby mass graves.
4. Shang dynasty existed - disproved by archaeology (19th century) - dis-disproved by oracle bones (19th c.) and better archaeology (late 20th).

Bottomline is, science is in essence an ongoing process of zetetic elench. Science does not work by "proving" or "disproving" anything permanently, but by continuously refuting accepted "facts" by way of consistent and methodical inquiry.
Sience also tried to dis-prove that Hitler existed only because almost all people
that lived in that time area had either forgotten or died. don't take it too serious.

~Xebi ish hot, witch, and a hot witchy witch ^_^ I'd give you one of my old piccies
to judge for yourself.. but I love keeping gender-paranoids like Atachi busy.

kiattichai25
11-20-2006, 01:31 AM
I dunno.
We aren't found any of them but they have magic.

neokenka
11-20-2006, 01:34 AM
Witches do exist, at least in the Pagan/Neopagan format. Don't know about flying on broomsticks and having green skin though, that must be a different branch or something...

SniperTak
11-20-2006, 05:03 AM
to sssr:
Im not talking about anything just BOOM out of the air. Yes, things have been dis-disproven. However, on the topic of witches... they used to exist, and now we know it is impossible. The myth of witches have been disproven, as we can see what the results of the witchhunts were. THAT cannot be dis-disproven.

Neokenka: Were talking about the generalization of witches. Again, everyone has his or her different concept of what they would believe to be a witch. Or a *****.

MapleSky
11-20-2006, 05:10 AM
I believe witches are just something that lot of people believe in, As goes for voodoo witches/shamans. Witches isn't necessarily bad and some of em cant be good either. Even some people today seek witches for cures diseases and such that modern medicine cannot cure. Yes realistically i think of witches today more as doctors.

Xebi
11-20-2006, 08:01 AM
I believe witches are just something that lot of people believe in, As goes for voodoo witches/shamans. Witches isn't necessarily bad and some of em cant be good either. Even some people today seek witches for cures diseases and such that modern medicine cannot cure. Yes realistically i think of witches today more as doctors.Witch doctors... old term, in dutch we'd call them "Kwakzalvers"... smuck...
see it as a placebo pill (fake medicine to cure the the mind rather than the
body)

I'm sure for some people it works.. but not for me, I've been to too many, and
none have helped me cure my headache... recently I found out I have a blood
pressure of 201/142, maybe that's been causing it.

StarWarsGalaxies
11-20-2006, 10:40 AM
Hm... maybe I should create a new thread only with a better poll like, what kinda of magic do you think could exist... because even though I never beleived in the anime-style-witch existence. I do think there are such things in our world such as ESP - or simply other senses our brains to pickup on that we just have no really developed. In a sense that could be considered "magic".

Alot of people also seem to believe in spiritual healing....
That though... meh. I don't think so. You can heal mentally though (a placebo can do that)

angel34160
11-20-2006, 12:00 PM
Ok first sorry my english is not perfect because i learned myself has a third lenguaje and just by seen movies and a diccionary that i reacentli lost second you don't write verywell too

Okay, Was there a question in there?

sorry it was the ? at the end


No, its not possible to fit a jet propulsion system onto a broomstick to make it fly a human into the air.

did i say a jet propulsion sistem? so you really know what is that and dont come whit an answer from google


Nice word. BTW, i cant really understand half of what you say.

sorry that my imagination is not has great has you to create a word like clasue o whait it was beacuse you make a mistake of typing maybe i did it too?


1. The earth was flat
2. Witches existed
But now, we konw that
1. The earth is not flat
2. Witches dont exist.
We cannot dis-disprove something.

ok now is proved the earth is not flat but somebody has proved witches don't exist


I dont think anyone knew about air, before they could make things fly.
BTW, this is wrong. Birds ARE OBVIOUSLY heavier than air, since people ATE birds. Yet no one wonders why birds can fly.

that only prove you dont' know anythig of history


Its not possibel to reach 0 kelvin, or go under it. Some things are just not possible.
Is it possible to chop off your head and sitll be able to live?
Is it possible to remove your brain and sitll be able to write a math test?
Is it possible to chop off both your balls but still produce sperm?

Maybe but is not proved yet
No but that is proved
Maybe i guess you did it you have no brain and keep writhing
Yes if kept alive by a machine or something


Oh, i believe there is some kind of superior being. Although, i wouldnt say they "created" humans, since humans EVOLVED.

Sorry i forget you are one of those stupid student that eat all the class whiout even try to understand what you "learn" ok sorry i mean start life in the planet by the way in what you belive


THERE ARE OTHER PLOPULSIONS BESIDE JETS. WTF, ARE YOU AN IDIOT, A JET ISNT THE ONLY WAY TO FLY YOU ASSHOLE.

so any of those "way" s can't have shape of a broom or fit in is posible i don't belive it but is posible
I thought you were more pasive so you use words like asshole to humiliate me or what can't you imaginate something better or you just talk like that


Again, can you remove your brain and sitll be able to finish a math test and do well on it?

I dont know what did you get on math brainless?


Wtf... You read too many comics.

Yes and books, magazines you know the things whit pages that you don't


Oh yes i have.

Really can i see? the prove the result of you exaustive test that prove everithing that science haven't prove yet


Science fiction does not include Witches.

i did not say that I say mith is the past science fiction the future you reed this o you just get an idea and move your fingers


You dont believe in viruses... Okay. Have fun dying by something you dont believe in.

Actually I mean computer virus but you just not going to get that so lets leave it like that


Okay, This isnt evena discussion.
You take unknown words that are beyond your comprehension, stick them together, and hope they can fly. A WINNAR IS YOU.

Sorry i did not know you were so stupid so its ok beyond my comprehension is why if you dont belive in any of this you bother in came around to insult people and try to make everybody think that you know all wen you just get it from google

MegaMick
11-20-2006, 12:46 PM
Sience also tried to dis-prove that Hitler existed only because almost all people that lived in that time area had either forgotten or died. don't take it too serious.

~Xebi ish hot, witch, and a hot witchy witch ^_^ I'd give you one of my old piccies to judge for yourself.. but I love keeping gender-paranoids like Atachi busy.
Hitler did not exist! I played Command and Conquer Red Alert! I know the truth!

Atachi? Just ignore her. She truly wants to believe she's the only girl in this forum, so she just pretends to be a guy and claims that he has proof that everyone else is a guy. Hey Atachi, can you prove I'm a guy too? I've got some doubts about myself, and I'd really like to know. :D(j/k plz don't ban me kthx!)
edit: By the way, is that blood pressure any healthy? I've got no idea what normal values would be. I take it those are high, considering the rest of the post?

@angel34160, you're hilarious! :D

Xebi
11-20-2006, 03:29 PM
I'm not getting any of that logic x3 but I'm guessing I'm not supposed to ^_^
Makes me feel like dancing and singing.. yaay XD

About blood pressure - not to go too far off topic.
Where a normal person around my age would have around 100/60,
and are adviced to start worrying at 140/90.. I have 201/142

Added to the fact that I'm having some personal issues with family
and through that with doctors... so I'm pretty much on my own again
to pull me out of these problems... I'm going to try and find a new
doctor tomorrow, because it is actualy pretty serious ^_^

hammermc
11-20-2006, 11:57 PM
Of course witches exist. Most modern practitioners of this art belong to the Wiccan religion. How do you find a witch? Well just look for that fat ugly chick that recycles everything and you will have found a witch.

SniperTak
11-21-2006, 03:09 PM
did i say a jet propulsion sistem? so you really know what is that and dont come whit an answer from google You said jet.


sorry that my imagination is not has great has you to create a word like clasue o whait it was beacuse you make a mistake of typing maybe i did it too? Clause is a steriotype in a way. Your typing mistakes, however, are just sad.


ok now is proved the earth is not flat but somebody has proved witches don't exist Science proved that witches dont exist.


that only prove you dont' know anythig of history Okay, so when people ATE those birds, they thought to themselves "hmm, these sure are LIGHTER than my dick, so my dick must be lighter than air!!!!"


Maybe but is not proved yet Yes, it is proven that you cannot reach zero kelvin. Anyone who knows a bit of chemistry knows this.


No but that is proved Yes, thats my point. Some things are impossible, and they are also proved.


Maybe i guess you did it you have no brain and keep writhing ....And compared to my writing, yours is worse. So, what does that make you?


Yes if kept alive by a machine or something .....MEN DONT DIE BECAUSE THEIR BALLS ARE CHOPPED OFF.


Sorry i forget you are one of those stupid student that eat all the class whiout even try to understand what you "learn" ok sorry i mean start life in the planet by the way in what you belive Okay, so you think that life started because of some divine power.... Someone obviosuly grew up in a catholic school...
Yeah, okay, so humans suddenly evolved by the power of "god", according to your theory. You should "learn" more, because it has been proven that life formed out of just oxygen and sulfur and a few other non-organic materials.

You say that i am stupid, yet you dont know what youre talking about.


I thought you were more pasive so you use words like asshole to humiliate me or what can't you imaginate something better or you just talk like that Im not humiliating you. Look up what that word means before you use it.
Sorry, shouldve used the word "retard". My bad.


I dont know what did you get on math brainless?94. And since our average mean this term was 76, does that make my class whole class brainless?


Yes and books, magazines you know the things whit pages that you don't Really? And which of those those magazines/books contained the word "lenguaje"? You obviously havent read enough.


Really can i see? the prove the result of you exaustive test that prove everithing that science haven't prove yet
I shall show you.

or some way for plopulsion betisede jets Its called helicopters.

or that a simple human cano't make what he whants whit the energy that alot of brain cells create is posible that create a field of energy capable of dispel the gravety field sorrounding him makin him capable of fly siting on a broom (i would prefer a chair) Its called physics.

or making potion on base that he feel the propeties of every plant every rock every animal even is mother earth Its called common sense. That, and the potion is probably either a drug that makes you hallucinate, or a sedative, and you are dreaming of such a world.


i did not say that I say mith is the past science fiction the future you reed this o you just get an idea and move your fingers
Then why did you bring up science fiction. We are talking about the past.

Sorry, it was the Leyend that threw me off. Didnt know what you meant until i had a deep long stare at the word. :(


Actually I mean computer virus but you just not going to get that so lets leave it like that Oh, sorry. The lack of the word "Computer" makes me think of normal viruses.

Yeah, im not going to get what youre saying. Next time type "computer" before virus, because even after a google search of the word "virus", the first, say, 100 matches come up as the virus that invades your body.


Sorry i did not know you were so stupid so its ok beyond my comprehension is why if you dont belive in any of this you bother in came around to insult people and try to make everybody think that you know all wen you just get it from googleROFL. Yes, i use google. But for me to actually type the searchword into google, i must know what im talking about.

Im not insulting you. I just think its funny that you choose to type like this when something called Microsoft word exists. The least it would do is to correct your spelling. But oh well, its the thought that counts.

You cant spell something by how it sounds... The word "lenguaje", although humurous, should not be used.

MegaMick
11-21-2006, 05:24 PM
No! Please! Use those words more often! I spent 12 hours in the university today, and nothing feels better than coming home and reading angel34160's skillful posts to laugh my head off!! :D

SniperTak
11-21-2006, 07:30 PM
You have to admit it is kinda funny...


sorry that my imagination is not has great has you to create a word like clasue o whait it was beacuse you make a mistake of typing maybe i did it too?Hes pointing out my mistake, yet hes making a mistake himself... Funny ****...

angel34160
11-22-2006, 12:34 AM
To:Snipertak Ok first i wrote this at the begining of my last post
(Ok first sorry my english is not perfect because i learned myself has a third lenguaje(sorry language) and just by seen movies and a diccionary that i reacentli lost second you don't write verywell too) again you read the post or just imaginate what is write
I dont use Microsoft word because i try to improve my english not to just let that a machine do it for me :rolleyes: like you whit google and you brain

You say jet.

Clause is a steriotype in a way. Your typing mistakes, however, are just sad.

You wrote clause because you make a mistake I do mistakes too so whats the problem :st:
I did not mencionate the jets you did it read the past posts
and is Santa claus not santa clause the stereotype


Yes, it is proven that you cannot reach zero kelvin. Anyone who knows a bit of chemistry knows this.

Maybe you right it may be proved i haven't search for it in google like you i went for what i remember and for me is posible to reach zero kelvin because it must be when the matter lost all of is energy beyond i don't know because when you get something cool you absorb is energy but cooling something is part of physics not chemistry anyone whit elementary school knows that

.....MEN DONT DIE BECAUSE THEIR BALLS ARE CHOPPED OFF.

Again read a little more you was the one who wrote:


Is it possible to chop off both your balls but still produce sperm?

"STILL PRODUCE SPERM" not die i never say die well actually i die before let someone chop off my balls not like you but :rolleyes: ok


Okay, so when people ATE those birds, they thought to themselves "hmm, these sure are LIGHTER than my dick, so my dick must be lighter than air!!!!"

Is hard to explain to someone :o like you but Ill do my best in the past long time ago before the first airplane apear the people whit little comprehension of science like you, thought that anything lighter than air could fly I know soud stupid but YOU must know this kind of people is the same than tought the earth was flat I repeat just because someone say it can't be done
I hope you get it this time


Okay, so you think that life started because of some divine power.... Someone obviosuly grew up in a catholic school...
Yeah, okay, so humans suddenly evolved by the power of "god", according to your theory. You should "learn" more, because it has been proven that life formed out of just oxygen and sulfur and a few other non-organic materials.

Ok firsth i did not grew up in a catholic school and is not my theory is one the four theorys apcceted by the entire human race of the begining of life in earth again something that anyone whit elementary school knows yes formed out of just oxygen and sulfur and a few other non-organic materials is one them


Im not humiliating you. Look up what that word means before you use it.
Sorry, shouldve used the word "retard". My bad.

I forgive you don't worry is just that i dont like that tipe of words and i know what the word means is just that would you call you mother as**ole i know you won't its a mater of respect beside hongfire forbide those (i guess)
Im ok if you call me "retad" is fine for me hope "stupid, brainlees" be ok for you


Really? And which of those those magazines/books contained the word "lenguaje"? You obviously havent read enough.

Almost all of them because is in spanish, "pendejo" is like stupid
:o Sorry my mistake its because you know three languages is hard to controle :rolleyes: I guess you never know maybe i need to read more
but "EN INGLES" spanish again


I shall show you.

Really when ;) because like all the scientist say "Its easy to prove that something is posible but imposible is harder because to prove that something is posible you just have to do it, to prove that is imposible you must try to the infinite and fail"


Yeah, im not going to get what youre saying. Next time type "computer" before virus, because even after a google search of the word "virus", the first, say, 100 matches come up as the virus that invades your body.

ROFL. Yes, i use google. But for me to actually type the searchword into google, i must know what im talking about.

:o Sorry I thought you will looks for an answer of idealms or some prove that you have mention you have and that Im eager to see not just my gammar and if i forgot one word of something irrelevant:rolleyes:
At least you admit that all you FAKE "knowlege" and all the things in what you belive come from google don't get used to it when you live in real life you may not have acces to google when you need it :P

*Hope you have laugh MegaMick....

MegaMick
11-22-2006, 04:34 PM
Trust me, I did! :D

And I don't mean that "laugh at someone" type of laugh. Just so you know.

SniperTak
11-22-2006, 10:30 PM
To:Snipertak Ok first i wrote this at the begining of my last post
(Ok first sorry my english is not perfect because i learned myself has a third lenguaje(sorry language) and just by seen movies and a diccionary that i reacentli lost second you don't write verywell too) again you read the post or just imaginate what is write Again, read my post. Im not making fun of you, i just think its funny.


I dont use Microsoft word because i try to improve my english not to just let that a machine do it for me :rolleyes: like you whit google and you brain Okay. But it sure isnt helping.


You wrote clause because you make a mistake I do mistakes too so whats the problem :st: Well, the mistake between clause and Claus, and that of mencionate and mention are large... very large.



Maybe you right it may be proved i haven't search for it in google like you i went for what i remember and for me is posible to reach zero kelvin because it must be when the matter lost all of is energy beyond i don't know because when you get something cool you absorb is energy but cooling something is part of physics not chemistry anyone whit elementary school knows that Okay, so you DONT know Basic chemistry for idiots. Sorry, i just assumed you came from a country that doesnt rely on Dmitris periodic table...



"STILL PRODUCE SPERM" not die i never say die well actually i die before let someone chop off my balls not like you but :rolleyes: ok
K, yet you say:

Yes if kept alive by a machine or something If i remember correctly, the phrase "kept alive" literally means to be alive, or to die if not kept alive.



Is hard to explain to someone :o like you but Ill do my best in the past long time ago before the first airplane apear the people whit little comprehension of science like you, thought that anything lighter than air could fly I know soud stupid but YOU must know this kind of people is the same than tought the earth was flat I repeat just because someone say it can't be done
I hope you get it this time Again, humans are not as stupid as you think. After they eat a bird, theyre not stupid enough to wonder "OMIGOSH!!!! THIS BIRD FLIES, SO MY BALLS, WHICH ARE LIGHTER THAN THIS BIRD, MUST ALSO FLY TOO!!!!!".


I forgive you don't worry is just that i dont like that tipe of words and i know what the word means is just that would you call you mother as**ole i know you won't its a mater of respect beside hongfire forbide those (i guess)
Im ok if you call me "retad" is fine for me hope "stupid, brainlees" be ok for you Okay. You say that i search on google for all my intelligence. Yet, anyone whos taken grade 12 science knows that going below 0 degrees kelvin is impossible.
Oh, and for me to actually search on google, i would have to know what to search for wouldnt I?
Theres a reason why hongfire doesnt censor the word "retard".


Almost all of them because is in spanish, "pendejo" is like stupid
:o Sorry my mistake its because you know three languages is hard to controle :rolleyes: I guess you never know maybe i need to read more
but "EN INGLES" spanish again Okay. I speak 3 languages, yet you dont see me typing weird and crazy english.
Pendejo... is that your nickname?
Guess you really do need to read more. Atleast, more ENGLISH books.


Really when ;) because like all the scientist say "Its easy to prove that something is posible but imposible is harder because to prove that something is posible you just have to do it, to prove that is imposible you must try to the infinite and fail" "Is it possible for a man to live with no head?" *Cuts off head*"Hmm, okay, we need to do more trials here".


:o Sorry I thought you will looks for an answer of idealms or some prove that you have mention you have and that Im eager to see not just my gammar and if i forgot one word of something irrelevant:rolleyes: Okay, you do that. Oh, and the word "Computer" before virus is not irrelevant. Again, type Virus in google and see how many pages you must go through before you get to a page that is filled with mentionings of "Computer" viruses. Kthx.



At least you admit that all you FAKE "knowlege" and all the things in what you belive come from google don't get used to it when you live in real life you may not have acces to google when you need it :P
Okay. If you truly believe this, you are a real Retard. Even my biology teacher cannot remember the lewis structure of Carboximinohemoglobin. Kthx.

You seem to think that all knowledge springs from some kind of random dream. Okay, you are an idiot. Why do you think people RESEARCH for a project? Yea, you need to attain the information before you learn it.

Again, please post what kind of FAKE "knowlege" i conjured up from google.


*Hope you have laugh MegaMick....
Were all having a good laugh, Angel34160.

solarenemy
11-23-2006, 10:22 AM
Ok, the poll plainly shows the majority feels witches exist. Then there is the issue that unless your in the foreign language forum, then the only language that is to be used is english. Not jibberglish. If you don't make an attempt to write in readable and correct english then your NOT going to get any respect from anyone here.

By attempt I mean write what you want to say into microsoft word, check it for spelling and grammer which Word btw does a good job off. Once it is all corrected, then you simply copy and paste it here at HF. It is really very simple and easy to do. Only the laziest person there is would not care to do it. So work on the english if you want to be taken seriously. Also all of us use and trust Google.

It isnt like Wikipedia that anyone can write on. Google usually come from reliable sourcwes. So use and stop makeing it seem that only ignorant people use it. If thats the case, then Angel is calling EVERY member of Hongfire ignorant. We all use Google and expect anyone who is wanting information to use it as well.

angel34160
11-23-2006, 02:41 PM
To: solarenemy*ok sorry :( if anyone feel so atacked by my comment i know that a lot of people use google im not against that is just that if your going to use it for research and learn its ok but if your going to use it for take out a quick answer of something that you haven't even thought or analyzed and just say and think, copy and paste everything that is published there then there is a problem not because the information is wrong is because you are not thinking
you are going to replace your brain for google?
I know is usefull for research not for think

*I feel bad because i never thougt you were so bad people i know is important write something that everybody can understan but Im still learning to write correctly so much words I try hard but i guess most of people know what i mean so i never thougt you were so elitist to tell me that is wrong if i try something whit my own brain because you must analyze this ( mmhhh is in another country whit another languge maybe is sofware must be in that languge so if he use word to correct what he write i think it be in is language so its uselees) if you are going to point my mistake is ok but if you are going to point my mistake just because you dont have a better answer for my opinion that just ( stupid you forget a b your opininion is stupid ) that answer prove that the people who asist to this forum is not what i espected
There a lot of people here who is learning Nihongo (japanese) i know that they must do the same thing that i do make mistakes in forums in nihongo so is not on porpuse or because we don't put some efort maybe is because were learning we try to improve our writing reading and writing
I take most of the words from a net diccionary
I dont feel bad because you tell me that my english succks i feel bad because you think i dont "make an efort" I do make an efort

you could have say spanglish not jibberglish because the problem was whit spanish

To:snipertak
You know what forget it when i saw you discusion whit solarenemy i thougt mmmhhhh this one have some points he must be someone smart or interesting but when i saw the answer you were posting i knew you just were copy and paste from google so forget it you bored me just one more think !!!!because you just don't get!!! and you are going to make me crazy


Again, humans are not as stupid as you think. After they eat a bird, theyre not stupid enough to wonder "OMIGOSH!!!! THIS BIRD FLIES, SO MY BALLS, WHICH ARE LIGHTER THAN THIS BIRD, MUST ALSO FLY TOO!!!!!".

Here you have a link to a page of an interview and in the second paragraph tird line say:
who argued against semiconductors for computers. And just before this century there were people saying anything heavier than air can't possibly fly.
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Townes/townes-con4.html
so if your opinion about the stupid people is that they wereno't so stupid I agree is just that they didn't know as in this time we don't know if is posible to travel light speed that was my point because you just "read" that all the scientist of the era think so and you dont even try to think if is posible you just belive and that's it so thats why I don,t a gree whit you

and betside when i say keep alive i mean my balls not me again
can still produce sperm? yes if my balls are keep alive (you know recive some sort or liquid that replace the blood ) they still can produce sperm i know imposible for you but jus wait some years and you will see it



K, yet you say:
If i remember correctly, the phrase "kept alive" literally means to be alive, or to die if not kept alive.




Okay, so you DONT know Basic chemistry for idiots. Sorry, i just assumed you came from a country that doesnt rely on Dmitris periodic table...

Okay. You say that i search on google for all my intelligence. Yet, anyone whos taken grade 12 science knows that going below 0 degrees kelvin is impossible.

So am I wrong about cooling?.... and is part of physics not chemistry.... country :rolleyes: what are you elitist or racist?


Maybe you right it may be proved i haven't search for it in google like you i went for what i remember and for me is posible to reach zero kelvin because it must be when the matter lost all of is energy beyond i don't know because when you get something cool you absorb is energy but cooling something is part of physics not chemistry anyone whit elementary school knows that
Again read a little more you was the one who wrote:

betside you say get there and beyond is imposible


Its not possibel to reach 0 kelvin, or go under it. Some things are just not possible.

and


Again, please post what kind of FAKE "knowlege" i conjured up from google.

Why I have to explain everything to you can't analyze a little bit:rolleyes:
I meant "fake knowlege" because is no't your knowlege you don't even know what are you talking about you just read a litle bit and copy and paste you never think if is real if is right or if is bullshit i don't know if is right i only know that you never thought that
I know you learn from the books and stuff because you cant see all but if you are going to belive everything that is writeng whitout a doubt then you are lost my friend because theres a lot of things that never match and you have to decide one side

*I know MegaMick :rolleyes:

ArchWing
11-23-2006, 03:22 PM
Yes... No... I dunno... Can you repeat the question... hmm... Aha!

I choose the bag of wallnuts! :kakashi:

SniperTak
11-23-2006, 07:53 PM
Okay. If you missed the part of "i am not making fun of your english" in my above posts, here it is again. I am not making fun of your english.


So am I wrong about cooling?.... and is part of physics not chemistry.... country what are you elitist or racist?What?
Racist? I dont even know what nationality you are. Although, i do have my biases towards retards.

As for cooling being apart of physics....

Chemistry is the study of matter and its changes. To get a gas into a liquid, or a liquid into a solid, you need to COOL it. Yeah. Sorry if your chemistry teacher never taught you that.



betside you say get there and beyond is imposible Yes, cooling to 0 degrees kelvin means taking away all possible energy. However, how can you have "minus" energy? Energy is not a loan, that you can pay back whenever you want.

Okay... As for going TO 0 degrees kelvin... Think of this. Imagine you have a box, and place a banana inside. You send the banana to .1 degrees kelvin, but it does not go any lower than that, because everything around the banana is made of atoms, and those atoms release microscopic energy packets to the banana, which casue the banana to gain more energy. Therefore, the banana will never reach 0 energy.

...Okay, YOU can go through your life not believing what books say. 1 + 1 doesnt really equal 2, its all a lie! Omigosh! Then how come 1 + 1 comes out as 2 every time i calculate it??? Things inside the textbook, and things i write down in this forums are all based on experimental data, as well as theory. But, you have to remember that theories themselves are based on knowledge and experiments.

Analyze this: Okay, if you dont agree with the no less than 0 degree kelvin ****, then type up your own thesis and send it to the chem board. But, until then, use the theory that is stated in all books and manuals, all lecture notes, and all internet sites. kthx.

PS. Btw, if you dont know whether my knowledge is "fake" as you put it, then dont assume that it is.

Oh, and the balls are chopped off. Yeah, read closer plz.

angel34160
11-24-2006, 12:30 AM
Thats better it sound more like something you realy thougt but even...
That example of bananas was good but i already know that but just because we can't do it now is imposible?
I don't think so it could be done in the future
I know Im a retard the book say it can't be done... :(
:rolleyes: The same book that say can't travel sound speed,
:rolleyes: can't get to the moon , :rolleyes: can't be life whiout light,
:rolleyes: can't be life in another planet, :rolleyes: god can't exist,
:rolleyes: the teacher of chemistry of Snipertack can't be wrong about the concep of physics and chemistry,
:rolleyes: can't create matter, :rolleyes: can't destroy matter,
:rolleyes: can't travel light speed and witches can't exist
:rolleyes: then your right if any of this can't be done just because a book and a lot of people say so now or in the past or even tomorrou because we can get in a dark time tomorrou whiout science because a religion say
Is not that i don't belive what is in the books i know that a person make experiments and test before publish a book but just because they couldno't do it is imposible? thare are some things that are imposible but some of them have a chance for error so is not imposible just unreacheable for now



As for cooling being apart of physics....

Chemistry is the study of matter and its changes. To get a gas into a liquid, or a liquid into a solid, you need to COOL it. Yeah. Sorry if your chemistry teacher never taught you that.

And just for you to know the diccionary say
S: (n) physics, physical science, natural philosophy (the science of matter
and energy and their interactions)

and another one..

phys

solarenemy
11-24-2006, 06:22 AM
I think you guys need to decide if your discussion on Absolute Zero is regarding now or in the future.

For now I agree with Sniper and the many programs I have seen dedicated to just this research. At our present time even with the most advanced cryogenics, cooling to Absolute Zero is impossible.

However in the future it might be possible through isolation with magnetic containment or some other exotic containment concept. The problem is the object you want to freeze must be isolated from any other matter or energy of any kind. Just the slightest interaction with anything around the target will prevent it from cooling. So it must be insulated and isolated from everything including matter and energy that surrounds it or it will not be completely cooled to absolute.

So in the future maybe absolute zero might be acchieved but for now we CANNOT achieve absolute zero. So now you guys need to decide are we talking about now or in the future. Keep you discussions relevant to each other or one of you will appear to be making no sence.

SniperTak
11-24-2006, 05:24 PM
Meh, absolute zero, again, refers to the total negation of energy. To acheive such a system, you would need a vacuum, with the walls of the vacuum so far away that any energy emitted from those walls will not reach the center. This is, however, impossible, because energy is always disperesed, and no matter where you are in teh galaxy, there are always traces of energy waves.
Not to mention, if you want to OBSERVE this phenomenon, how could you? When you try to shine a light, or take readings, you would need some kind of energy emitting device.

Maybe, in the far far distant future, we will be able to reach 0 kelvin and travel at the speed of light.
But then again, maybe not.
Lets talk about the present and the past, shall we?
Since the present and the past are things that are occuring.
We can always speculate what the future might bring, but none of those are based on fact.
Science is defined as the systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation. And since we cant experiment on the future, lets leave it outside the door for now.


The same book that say can't travel sound speed Yes, you cannot travel at the speed of light. How could you? Once you hit the speed of light, every second that passes by for you, an infinite number of seconds passes by for the rest of the universe.


can't be life in another planet The hell are you talking about.

As for matter changes not being utilized in chemistry:
No one said that cooling is restricted to liquids into solids.

1. The science of the composition, structure, properties, and reactions of matter, especially of atomic and molecular systems.Structure: –noun
1. mode of building, construction, or organization; arrangement of parts, elements, or constituents: a pyramidal structure.

Also, this:
http://www.glencoe.com/sec/science/chemistry/mc/wwwlinks/index13.shtml

So, what level of chemistry are you at again?


and about the balls i didn't get it i readed stick to the screen but still don't get it
so chopped off and? Chopped off means to slice off. So yeah, no machine to help you live. Or help your sperms live.

Next time, read more carefully plz. Helps alot, thanks.
Else everyone will think youre a retard. Oh wait. Nevermind.

This next sentence proves how stupid you are.

All the information mentionate on top about chemistry and phisics was get it from google just because i already know that was true but to prove it to snipertackMy username is right there, and yet you still get it wrong. Sigh.

I hope you get it this time. Cause according to your theory, balls can fly. I dont know whos to blame, your parents for not putting you through school, or your teacher for not paying enough attention to you to notice that you should be placed in a "special" class.

sf101
11-24-2006, 06:41 PM
Can someone tell again how this thread ended up so of topic? Oh well I'll just state the following:
Witches do exist but not to the extent on which people think. They don't have superpowers. A modern day witch is simply one who practices magic specificly low magic. Wiccans are by definition NOT witches and such generalizations should not be made.

Magick(using this variation) is "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will"(Aleister Crowley) Magic exist and does work. Back in medievil times the definition would be widespread but using this modern day definition it encompasses many different things that aren't of the supernatural kind but those who've practice quite awhile won't see as such either.

Will these claims be desputed? Ofcourse whether it's a general disbelief or other reasons but not like I care. You must have practiced to understand.

angel34160
11-24-2006, 10:47 PM
Forget it :rolleyes:
Ok i give up if you are going to keep your mind so close is ok i don't care you bored me
Im out of this tread you just keep your mind close and deny all possibility in this huge world just hope be happy not doing anything by the first time because somebody else couldn't

And is physics not chemestry think a little even your head hurts you make an effort

heat = energy
matter = anything
adding heat to anything = adding energy to matter... so physics:O


I hope you get it this time. Cause according to your theory, balls can fly. I dont know whos to blame, your parents for not putting you through school, or your teacher for not paying enough attention to you to notice that you should be placed in a "special" class.

!!!!My theory??????!!!!!

the only thing i toll you was
Page#8 post71# 11-19-2006, 03:43 PM...


because a bunch of people thought that anything hevier that air couldno't fly nothing flew

In page 8 post#74 11/19/2006 05:44 PM
You came out whit this...



I dont think anyone knew about air, before they could make things fly.
BTW, this is wrong. Birds ARE OBVIOUSLY heavier than air, since people ATE birds. Yet no one wonders why birds can fly.


And in page 9 Post#89 11-21-2006, 04:09 PM
You improved to this...


Okay, so when people ATE those birds, they thought to themselves "hmm, these sure are LIGHTER than my dick, so my dick must be lighter than air!!!!"


And even i try as hard as i could to explain it to you
page#10 post#92 11-22-2006, 01:34 AM ...


Is hard to explain to someone :o like you but Ill do my best in the past long time ago before the first airplane apear the people whit little comprehension of science like you, thought that anything lighter than air could fly I know soud stupid but YOU must know this kind of people is the same than tought the earth was flat I repeat just because someone say it can't be done
I hope you get it this time


You did ti again
Page#10 post#94 11-22-2006, 11:30 PM ....



Again, humans are not as stupid as you think. After they eat a bird, theyre not stupid enough to wonder "OMIGOSH!!!! THIS BIRD FLIES, SO MY BALLS, WHICH ARE LIGHTER THAN THIS BIRD, MUST ALSO FLY TOO!!!!!".


Page#10 post#96 11-23-2006, 03:41 PM
Until ...


Here you have a link to a page of an interview and in the second paragraph tird line say:
who argued against semiconductors for computers. And just before this century there were people saying anything heavier than air can't possibly fly.
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Townes/townes-con4.html
so if your opinion about the stupid people is that they wereno't so stupid I agree is just that they didn't know

And now is my theory...???...OK:errrr:?????


Next time, read more carefully plz. Helps alot, thanks.
Else everyone will think youre a retard. Oh wait. Nevermind.

Thank you i appreciate the advice to show you how much
I will give you one....

Next time read think and act, more carefully plz.
Helps alot, thanks.
Or everyone will know youre a retard, stupid, brainlees. Oh wait. Nevermind.;D

*Sniperwereever :rolleyes: i only know start whit sniper :D your no't interesting :rolleyes: enough to remember your nickname >:D

fkrdl
11-24-2006, 11:09 PM
wow swg its like in every thread you make something goes increadibly wrong

SniperTak
11-25-2006, 12:10 AM
To Angel:
Your theory: Anything that is lighter than air can fly. You stated this before, as proof to back your point up that scientists are retards.



*Sniperwereever i only know start whit sniper your no't interesting enough to remember your nickname
I like how you type your words. Very funny indeed. And youd think the person who calls others retards would actually take the time to look at the english language.
Also, maybe youre not smart enough to remember my name. Kthx.


heat = energy
matter = anything
adding heat to anything = adding energy to matter... so physics It takes energy to break bonds. Are you trying to tell me that Bonds and molecules are now apart of physics as well?

The main point you fail to see, is that Physics and chemistry are both sciences. With your argument, physics is not math, yet mathematics is a vital part of physics. Everything is connected. Its bullsh*t arrogance like yours(yes, yours angel34160) that create conflicts.


Maybe but is not proved yet shows how ignorant you are.


Actually I mean computer virus but you just not going to get that so lets leave it like that Shows how stupid you are.


So am I wrong about cooling?.... and is part of physics not chemistry.... country what are you elitist or racist? shows how ****in retarded, and fukin pathetic you are.

Yet youre the one who claims i use childish name callings to undermine you. Look at your posts.

solarenemy
11-25-2006, 12:16 AM
Can we get back on the topic of witches. This has gone on for three pages now. Give it a break and get back on topic. Maybe you guys should take it to PM cuz your ruining this thread that some of us are interested in discussing witches in.

kingalex
11-25-2006, 03:35 PM
we can't say for sure they exist or not

it haven't been proven worldwide that witches exist

it also haven't been proven that they don't exist (This will never be proven anyway...)

that mostly all I had to say

xanderman
11-25-2006, 07:59 PM
well you cant disprove santa clause and the easterbunny either or a jeti but screw all that and screw withced.

I only believe in 1 thing and that is that the allmighty Ra rows his wooden piece of crap boat around the eath each day to give us sunlight.

SniperTak
11-25-2006, 09:17 PM
It also hasnt been proven that atoms exist.

Things that havent been proven, are not necessarily true. God hasnt been proven, nor will it ever be proven that god existed. How can we prove that jesus existed? How can we prove that oxygen exists?

xanderman
11-26-2006, 04:51 PM
Science proves oxygen and atoms and molecules, you can even see them with an electron microscoop and other chemical can prove oxygen but i gues that rockets dont fly on "liquid oxygen" but on "liquid cant proof it crap"

Dont try to be smart because oxygen and atoms can be proven and have.
I can go matrix on your ass and say, what is real, well electric impulses that go to our brain say we experience or feel or see this bla bla bla.
The color red is only red because we call it that bla bla bla

Unlike the oxygen and atoms god cannot be proven the existens of jesus has been proven but was he able to perform miracles, give me a break.
The bible is a big book of fairytails with even 80% of its original content missing.

Ppl that say oxygen and atoms dont exist also think the evolution theory is bullcrap, ppl like this make me sick, go live in on your flat earth just make sure you dont fall off.

Also dont diss my believes in the Pink unicorn that is the TRUE GOD, i hereby declaer jihad on all those who oppose my pink unicorn believes.

I personally believe in the pink unicorn that gavebirth to mankind

Frozen Frog
11-26-2006, 05:21 PM
Does that mean witches are similar to alchemists.?
Or, was alchemy highly unpopular that it's not very popular in europe.
Some witches (or alchemists) use materials with any color imaginable, different shaped ingredients and stuff. Yet some drunk(or paranoid) passerby walked passed this particular house and noticed that person is playing with objects which looked like eyeballs (which were beads) or a large cauldron and dumping heck many variaty of powder into it. Thus giving it a poof of smoke (chemical reaction.?) and that passerby ran off into town and started wailing bout witches in the woods going after their eyeballs and balls.

That's from someone who doesn't know chemistry

solarenemy
11-26-2006, 05:43 PM
Actually the color red is only red becuase the material we are looking at has a pigment that absorbs all wavelengths of light but the red wavelengths. It reflects red and so we see red. If it reflected all wavelengths it would be white and if it absorbed all it would be black. Color is simple reflection acquired by various pigments. We could have made the name something other the red for that color. But we called it red from day one and so it is.

As stated, atoms can be seen with an electron microscope and have even been photographed after being trapped inside a laser beam. So if that isnt proof enough of an atoms existance then I don't know what is. Oxygen is what keeps us alive. If you doubt its existance then walk into a room filled with nitrogen or some other inert gas besides oxygen and see how long you last. No other gas will keep you alive other then oxygen. So that along should be proof of its existance as well.

The fact is that for some of us witches could be real and a possibility. For others who are close minded and/or grounded in science and need to see proof to belive then witches will never exist.

If you want to believe in them then do so. If you don't then more power to you. But both parties need to stop trying to make the other party see otherwise. Because nothing will change the mind of either side no matter what arguments you present.

The poll plainely shows that more beleve in them then don't so leave it at that. If you don't believe thats your choice. Thats just one less thing to add mystery to the world for you. If you do believe then follow that believe and explore it. There are many more things out there that science can't explain and so says it doesnt exist. So explore and enjoy those things as well. Don't let science tell you it doesnt exist just because nobody can explain it.

Science is constantly finding new and undiscovered things by using new methods of exploration. So maybe someday science will discover witches. But till then all you have is those who say they exist and those who claim they are witches. Then there are those that know witches personally.


Link to atoms being photographed.

http://www.ornl.gov/info/press_releases/get_press_release.cfm?ReleaseNumber=mr20040917-00

Malik04
11-26-2006, 06:16 PM
i think a witch practices a religion, and are seen as the word "witches" by everyone else. in the end they are not witches, they are just like catholics, and christians, all practicing religions. witch is just the term used to classify them.

sf101
11-26-2006, 08:02 PM
Science is constantly finding new and undiscovered things by using new methods of exploration. So maybe someday science will discover witches. Actually thanks to chaos magic there is a constant theory on the inner workings of magick. It's just nobody bother to try it in a scientific sense. I suggest Liber Null & Psychonaut by Peter Carroll which explains most of what magick really does and how it works.

For those who don't want to read the books the mathematical equations(From Liber Kaos also by Peter Carroll) is best seen as:
M= GL(1-A)(1-R)

M=Magic
G=Gnosis(magical trance)
L=Magic Link(Mental Focus of what you want to happen)
A=Consicous awareness(Consiousness supresses all magic)
R=Subconsicous(Belief that they can)

G,A,L, and R are evaluated on a scale of zero to one, yielding an M value also in the range of zero to one. M cannot be more than G, A, L, or R. G & L must be in the range of .8 or .9 to have any magical success. C & R must be as low as possible. M must equate to .5 or higher to have any chance of effect. M + P equates the chance of any magical success(see below).

Pm=P+(1-P)M1/p

Pm=Probability of a magical event happenning
P=Chance of happening(without magic)
M=Magic

This equation demonstrates the possiblity of magic occuring. If M=1 however anything is possible through magic but that would take a decade of practice to achieve.

It should also be noted that the above equation are missing two factors: Will/Desire. Desire effects the subconscious reducing or increasing resistance depending on the desire(Most notably used in satanic magic) and should be employed with G. This unfortunately leave room for accidental magic a.k.a tried to girlfriend and ended up raped(A note to those who watch hentai, desire to see girls raped would have that kind of magical accident).

Next constant magic does not add up. One magical act does NOT improve any others. Successive magic is meaningless.

Last equation is magical defense.
Pm= P - P x M1/(1-P)
Same as above meanings

This involves both this and the above equations. The two M are subtracted from with the bigger M in it's corresponding equation(bigger defense M is third equation, bigger offensive M is in second).

Anyone who knows simple algebra can see that mathematicly doing magic is HARD and has little chance of working at first try. If you don't believe me then ask a Chaos magician about it. I know this thread was about witches but what people are REALLY looking for is magick and this is the equations to it. On a last note the magical trance is any type of strong focus such as right at an orgasm(most commonly used in magic).

SniperTak
11-26-2006, 09:26 PM
To Xanderman: Let me be more specific. It has not been proven that Electrons and protons exist. There is no mircroscope capable of looking at an individual proton/neutron, nor is an electron staying "put" long enough for us to see it. For the most part, it is still a theory. Experiments state that they exist, but if we cannot actually see them for ourselves, we do not know whether they ACTUALLY exist or not.

Frozenfrog: I can clearly see you have no experience with chemistry...

To sf101: Yes. And the equation P/X(1-QP) + 48S^3 Shows the desire for a human to live, with P being the height of the person, Q being his IQ, X being his brain wave period, and S being the amount of times he has sex per day.

sf101
11-26-2006, 09:40 PM
Yes. And the equation P/X(1-QP) + 48S^3 Shows the desire for a human to live, with P being the height of the person, Q being his IQ, X being his brain wave period, and S being the amount of times he has sex per day.I know you're trying to make an immature joke here but from the construction of your equation I don't see it nor the end result which this is supposed to calculate. I'll just say that unless you've actually practiced magick you'll never understand it and because of your disbelief you couldn't make it work anyway(Remember the subconscious factor).

reih
11-26-2006, 09:51 PM
yes they exist.. there's a lot from my country ^^

they always show on tv, though i only heard stories..

they din't really show the witch, only where they leave, the equipment..

solarenemy
11-26-2006, 10:09 PM
As SF101 stated, the abilty to perform magic depends greatly on the practitioners will and belief that the magic will work. Someone who doesnt even believe in witches would never even be able to fathom this concept let alone even attempt to perform magic. As I said before, let those who believe do so, and those who don't we ll don't. But dragging all these things like absolute zero and chemistry and physics and all into the thread is doing nothing but changing the subject.


The subject is do witches exist or not? Thats it and nothing more.

NekoOni
11-26-2006, 11:16 PM
Do witches or other people with similar capabilities exist? Now I'm sure at least one witch or individual with similar powers could do with a million dollars. http://www.randi.org/ See the million dollar challenge section. I think in light of the existence of James Randi's million dollar challenge and the fact that no-one has ever suceeded at showing their powers in a controlled environment we can safely say that anyone who claims to have supernatural powers is in fact lying.

xanderman
11-26-2006, 11:17 PM
First of all i know how colors work and why they abosorb the other light exect for the color we see, i was only saying we call things by a name we chose to call it and can most of the time not understand that word with a different meaning.

Second ive seen hundereds of little kiddies truly believing in their ki energy and trying to make kameama wave power ball fir things like goku and to thid day it never worked also smartass chines monks with their ki energy is nothing more then will power.

You can accomlish alot trough willpower and positive thinking but those are in your own body and mind but also has limits.

Then again there is also no convincing hardcore believers there is no god or else their world would collapse.

Any sound of mind reasoning growup human being would know these things to be true.

p.s. sorry to burst your bubble but Electrons and protons have been proven
that you dont want to see the proof is your problem if you want to think everything in the world is made up out of the 4 elements water fire air and earth then please believe so.

ungas1232004
11-26-2006, 11:24 PM
witches and warlock does exists and witchcraft is practiced on our country

NekoOni
11-26-2006, 11:39 PM
witches and warlock does exists and witchcraft is practiced on our country
There's a thing called proof, got any?

SniperTak
11-27-2006, 12:09 AM
I can believe that 1+1 does NOT equal 2. Yet, no matter how many times i try it out, it always equals 2.

PS. Its actually a theory. Electrons cannot be seen, so people theorized that there exists these particles. Sorry to burst your bubble.

NekoOni
11-27-2006, 12:18 AM
PS. Its actually a theory. Electrons cannot be seen, so people theorized that there exists these particles. Sorry to burst your bubble.

It's "just a theory" is a very strange accusation to level at something in the field of science. Given that in science a "Theory" is actually the highest level of certainty a concept can be at. Gravity is just a theory, Relativity is just a theory. There is a thing which most commonly exists in atoms, it has a negative charge and very little mass. We call this thing an electron. If you think there is a better explanation for the countless phenomenon which are explained by the electron "theory" then let's hear it.

DK3411
11-27-2006, 04:18 AM
I can believe that 1+1 does NOT equal 2. Yet, no matter how many times i try it out, it always equals 2.

PS. Its actually a theory. Electrons cannot be seen, so people theorized that there exists these particles. Sorry to burst your bubble.

An apology for getting so off-topic. But I felt some things had to be clarified.

Electrons have been proven to exist. They also CAN be seen, indirectly, that is, be it via a cloud chamber (beta decay, which releases a high-energy electron) or in crystal diffraction experiments.

In fact, the simplest real-life example I can think of would be the good old CRT TVs. As its name suggests, CRTs (Cathode Ray Tubes) are in fact chambers which fire electrons onto a target. The TV screen is coated with a material that fluoresces when hit by an electron. So you can "see" the electron indirectly. You can't see the individual electron, but you can track its path and know it's there based on its behaviour and that little bright speck it produces on your screen.

Also, countless other experiments have also proven the existence of electrons. So it's not "Just a theory". Sorry to burst YOUR bubble. :D

solarenemy
11-27-2006, 06:22 AM
Keep in mind particle accellerators and even CERN in Switzerland is dedicated to the electron. Sending them around a supermegnetic track several times till the collide together in a target chamber where the collision can be analyzed. But its purpose is to fire and accelerate particles that you guys are saying are only theory. Then you have electron microscopres. If electrons are only theory then what the heck makes them work? You also have electron beams that asre being used to shape and carve bucky balls and bucky tubes to make parts for nanobots and nanotechnology. Again if electrons are only theory then what are using to process those bucky balls?

xanderman
11-27-2006, 09:50 AM
The last three ppl to post above make very good points of witch i know to be true, this is something called proof.

Snipertak if you choose to ignore this as proof and gonna blab on about your "no its has not been proven" then please write down for when you think the exsistence of something is proven? Please do.

Also if 1+1 equal 2 is something you have been taught to as a way to think it could have been 3 if 3 ment double the ammount of 2, its all in what youve been learned.

Jeroquee
11-27-2006, 11:07 AM
Dear admins of HongFire, your website is broken. I clicked on a topic about witches, but, strangely enough, now I'm reading something about electrons. This must be a witch conspiracy!

MegaMick
11-27-2006, 04:52 PM
Witches clearly mind-controlled snipertak and angel34160 in order to disrupt this thread. They did not want us to discuss their existance, for they feared we'd go out witch-hunting. :D

This is proof that witches exist, and that they have no idea of how HF community acts.

Where can I change my vote? Plz remove a vote from No and insert it on Yes. :D

Kaktyc
11-27-2006, 04:59 PM
You are all getting off track.

Theory is something that describes/explains current conditions.
An electron theory would be an example.

A witch theory would NOT be a theory because is does not explain anything unexplained or unknown.

Therefore believing that witches exist is totally not supported by anything, but your own words.
Its as simple as it gets, don't try to make your life more difficult by inventing non-existent variables and shoving them into equation.

sf101
11-27-2006, 05:38 PM
You are all getting off track.

Theory is something that describes/explains current conditions.
An electron theory would be an example.

A witch theory would NOT be a theory because is does not explain anything unexplained or unknown.

Therefore believing that witches exist is totally not supported by anything, but your own words.
Its as simple as it gets, don't try to make your life more difficult by inventing non-existent variables and shoving them into equation. I assume this is against the equation I typed well the end result is a magical act and unless you are actually going to put it to the test in a scientific environment your just basing this on you own personal beliefs without any said experiment to prove it wrong as there are many who practice magick to back up my claims.

Also don't pull the no explaination no existence arguement because then you'd be saying gravity doesn't exist.

As for witches in general I'll ask for a definition to be used in this thread. Anyone with any ideas?

NekoOni
11-27-2006, 05:50 PM
without any said experiment to prove it wrong as there are many who practice magick to back up my claims.
Experiment to prove it wrong? Burden of proof states that it's up to those proclaiming the existence of witches to PROVE their existence (and I mean in a controlled test environment), not up to everyone else to DISPROVE their existence. This is simply so that people don't have to spend all their time disproving other people's crackpot theories.

sf101
11-27-2006, 06:01 PM
Experiment to prove it wrong? Burden of proof states that it's up to those proclaiming the existence of witches to PROVE their existence (and I mean in a controlled test environment), not up to everyone else to DISPROVE their existence. This is simply so that people don't have to spend all their time disproving other people's crackpot theories. Ok therefore you want me to prove the existence of magic which is to cause change by my will. Hm the problem with that is that any success achieved can be easily disregarded as if you remember the above equation it has to be possible without magic therefore anything I do would be futile since any skeptic will chalk it up to chance(don't blame them either) making it impossible unless there are multiple experiments dealing with controled success ratios. I'm guessing that's why belief is a factor as magic within itself is illogical. At the end the only real way to prove it is for someone to try it and acheive a result. A consensus is impossible otherwise.

P.S. Since we cannot explain the what causes magick but continue to see success how could we justify it anyway?

Deathbaron
11-27-2006, 07:42 PM
does chris angel count?


any other witch is bogus
green warts and eye of newt nonsence


PS:
chris angel is gay and a fake

SniperTak
11-27-2006, 11:34 PM
Okay. Did they never teach you that you can never see an atom? You cannot see an individual atom because all atoms are thousands of times smaller than the smallest light waves we can see using our eyes. But, there are so many evidences to the contrary, that atoms MUST exist.

Now, dont get me wrong here. I believe electrons exist, and so do atoms. However, for the sake of this argument, what we see is always what we believe. Logic tells us that magick cannot exist.

I hear bullshit people saying "but if we use 100% of our brains, we might be able to make things float in the air". Okay, you are an idiot. They say we only use 10% of our brains, but were actually only using 10% of the brain AT A TIME. We use the whole thing, just in incriments.

solarenemy
11-28-2006, 06:25 AM
Okay. Did they never teach you that you can never see an atom? You cannot see an individual atom because all atoms are thousands of times smaller than the smallest light waves we can see using our eyes. But, there are so many evidences to the contrary, that atoms MUST exist.

Now, dont get me wrong here. I believe electrons exist, and so do atoms. However, for the sake of this argument, what we see is always what we believe. Logic tells us that magick cannot exist.

I hear bullshit people saying "but if we use 100% of our brains, we might be able to make things float in the air". Okay, you are an idiot. They say we only use 10% of our brains, but were actually only using 10% of the brain AT A TIME. We use the whole thing, just in incriments.

I just recently posted a link that plainly shows silicon atoms being photograped in cross section by a scanning electron microscope. So if that is enough proof that you can see them or that they exist then there is just no hope for you. But incase you missed it. here it is again just for you SnipTak.


http://www.ornl.gov/info/press_releases/get_press_release.cfm?ReleaseNumber=mr20040917-00

sf101
11-28-2006, 10:36 AM
However, for the sake of this argument, what we see is always what we believe. Logic tells us that magick cannot exist. If you remember the equation consciousness suppresses anything magical, this includes noticing said psychic phenomonon. Add that to the lack of subconscious belief and it would be impossible to understand or detect.


I hear bullshit people saying "but if we use 100% of our brains, we might be able to make things float in the air". Okay, you are an idiot. They say we only use 10% of our brains, but were actually only using 10% of the brain AT A TIME. We use the whole thing, just in incriments. Yeah the people who say that are morons. We consciously use only 10% of our brains because the rest of it is too busy keeping our body intact aka subconscious things like breathing and healing.

Magick is neither conscious or subconscious(thought learning how to influence both is an excellent technique to change what you don't like about yourself) hence the magical trance which is like an orgasm or drinking a bottle of nyquil. You don't know what you've done till it's over and even then you must forget what you did to keep it from the conscious awareness. The only exception to this would be invocation or envokation which you call other forces such as gods, demons, angels, ect. within yourself or outside yourself. I don't have all the answers on that one especially since you can envoke a part of yourself such as fear and kill it. I don't get it either.

xanderman
11-28-2006, 10:59 AM
P.S. Since we cannot explain the what causes magick but continue to see success how could we justify it anyway?

what now succes in magic, when was that?



Magick is neither conscious or subconscious(thought learning how to influence both is an excellent technique to change what you don't like about yourself) hence the magical trance which is like an orgasm or drinking a bottle of nyquil. You don't know what you've done till it's over and even then you must forget what you did to keep it from the conscious awareness. The only exception to this would be invocation or envokation which you call other forces such as gods, demons, angels, ect. within yourself or outside yourself. I don't have all the answers on that one especially since you can envoke a part of yourself such as fear and kill it. I don't get it either.

So you use magic to clear zits off your face or use magical plastic surgery?
You said you dont get it, neither do I.

Please man for the sanity of this forum, stay away from the glue.

sf101
11-28-2006, 11:21 AM
what now succes in magic, when was that? Ask anyone who practices and you'll get quite abit of stories.


So you use magic to clear zits off your face or use magical plastic surgery?If I recall correctly from Franz Bardon's teachings anything refering to the body, soul, or spirit can be influenced magicly even without ritual or anything of that sort. So yes so long as it is possible without magic it can work by either increasing the odds of said occurance or by working to that the most effecient way to get the desired result.


You said you dont get it, neither do I.
Please man for the sanity of this forum, stay away from the glue. You shouldn't take stuff out of context it's rude ya'know. As for glue I fail to see your implication. If I was to make an implication however I couldn't help but notice that you're viewing an Loli Rape H-game called Baby face. At this point I'd say you have no right to criticise when it come to different taste.

teishoku
11-28-2006, 02:10 PM
Hmm, I was certain they didn't exist until I met my math teacher.. ._.

icek
11-28-2006, 02:41 PM
They exist in the sense that people call themselves witches. But i don

Kaktyc
11-28-2006, 02:44 PM
2 sf101
Geez, i have to repeat myself again.

It does not go the way
"No explanation -> no existence"
It goes
"No existence -> no explanation"

And you are trying to invent an explanation for something that does not exist.
I mean give me a witch and a magical act, and I'll accept your witch theory until i have a better one.

Gravity theory only exists because things fall on the ground lol. If they didn't, then we would have to make another theory to explain that.

Your bare words prove nothing.


2 the rest of anti-witch movement
You guys shouldn't try to prove existence of anything to witch believers. Its them who are trying to prove that witches exist.




P.S. Since we cannot explain the what causes magick but continue to see success how could we justify it anyway? Excuse me, where the hell do you see any success?

No magical act -> no witches. Prove me wrong, lol. :D
Yea right, i need a magical act, to be able to touch it, taste it, smell it, and study every physical aspect of it. Until i have it, until we all have it, this whole discussion is a joke.

sf101
11-28-2006, 03:58 PM
Then I'll ask of you to read the enochian calls. All 19 of them in enochian without any pause or stopping out loud and observe any type of mental reaction you recieve during so. As well things such as the tv must be turned as they are a distraction. Here's a link to a pdf
http://www.hermetic.com/browe-archive/pdf/calls2.pdf

Enochian is believe to be the language of angels which was dictated to Dr. John Dee through his Seer Edward Kelly. I dare you read all 19 in enochian and see if there is any mental effect. Here's your chance put up or shut up.

If that doesn't pull your fancy try saying the lord's prayer backwards and watch what happen in your head.

I doubt your actually going to read it thought and will just say,"It don't work" because this is the internet and ofcourse you don't have to take responsibility for anything here.


Excuse me, where the hell do you see any success? When I live everyday in paradise. Tantra is quite excellent in achieving that. Also note how you even bothered to try and argue at someone over something you don't believe in. Good to know you put so much energy into people you thing are nuts.


It goes "No existence -> no explanation" The existence is what we experience as we practice thus it warrants an explanation. We experence it thus it exist to us and we see results thus we search for an explanation. As I said above Put up or Shut up.

Ganic Tasa Fubim Flereous

NekoOni
11-28-2006, 06:28 PM
sf101 the reason that rational people attempt to explain things to people who believe irrational things such as superstitions and religions is because we hate seeing people waste their lives on nonsense. The universe is an incredibly beautiful place without all this hocus-pocus getting in the way. Instead of witchcraft try reading a book about the theory of evolution, cosmology or quantum physics, you'll find a universe much more fascinating and fufilling than your books of spells and incantations.

Also all of the effects you stated in your last post are psychosomatic (i.e. they affect your state of mind because your are expecting and even hoping they will, hence it is actually you who is changing your state of mind not the words per se), when we say witchcraft we mean some real visible changes in the real world which should be plainly visible in any controlled conditions. However we all know that no witch or supernatural practitioner would ever allow themselves to tested under controlled conditions because they would fail miserably.

MegaMick
11-28-2006, 06:51 PM
To you guys trying to put science in a discussion where it just doesn't belong:

5 jewish guys pretty much changed the way people viewed things at their times...
One was Moses, he said that law was EVERYTHING. Then came Jesus, he said that love was EVERYTHING. Then came Marx and said that money was EVERYTHING. Then came Freud, and he said, sex was EVERYTHING... Finally, came Einstein: He said that EVERYTHING is relative.
It doesn't takes a genius like that to know that science and theories isn't everything when discussing something... Forget that. You're just going off-topic. If you wanna discuss electron mambo-jambo just because you think you're right and you wanna make the other guy see he's wrong, or something, just do that over Private Messages. This thread is not the place to do it.

sf101, I read those equations you posted and I understand the logic behind them, it's nice. You probably expected this when you posted... Who'd believe that stuff just because? Honestly. Ofc, I don't believe in them, anyway, since you can replace "Magic" with "Ilusion" there, and they'll work exactly the same, and will make even more sense that way...
Anyway, I never say never. I never disregarded your posts as bullshit and hey, there's a chance that thing actually happens with some people but they all have their reasons not to show the people that do not believe in such things. I can understand that. If I did do magic, I probably wouldn't go around showing it to everyone and how it can be possible and so on. Someone's offering a million dollars to whoever can do magic? Who cares? I'd get more interesting things if I did magic without telling some weird organization like that. Who knows, it's not something I really planned ahead. I don't expect to suddenly be able to use magic, I just like I would... :D

But today I was reading the newspaper and I came across a huge article talking about that. Well, the newspaper is not that known or even good. I think it was Metro or one of those free newspapers there are.
Basicly someone suggested that if everyone had an orgasm in the same day, while believing in peace, the world would become more peaceful a place. Because the people's will power and belief would change the energy around the planet. I study some sciences, but, this is still interesting.
I immediatly remembered your post with those equations and how trance (such as orgasmic trance) and will power and belief play their role in them.
I may not believe in magic, but I think I can change that for a day if that gives me an excuse to... *Ahem* erm, ya know.
Here's the link to the organization that defends this great global event: www.globalorgasm.org
(Actually, I noticed that they do explain in the site how science supports the cause and how it works, but I didn't bother reading it yet because, well, it was a long and tiring day. Perhaps tomorrow I'll check it out. I find it hard to believe that science would take that serious, but hey, it's probably an interesting read anyway.)


In the 22nd of December, let's all cum! Those who can't get a lay that day, come and check HF's hentai galleries. I'm pretty sure that some people will be gentle enough to upload new stuff prior to that date, for us loners that do care about world peace as much as the people that have sex friends or lovers. :D
This goes to you witches too!! Do your magic sex for world peace. For a change, stop being selfish and using your magic only to yourselves. And instead, do it for world peace! I think it's a good cause, don't you?


P.S. - If there's a lone girl out there that wants to make sex for world peace, erm, please contact me. :neko: Even if it's just cyber. :grin:
If you're a witch, I'm twice as interested. And if you're hot, it's also twice. And if you're a hot witch, then it stacks. Like, quad. 4x. Yes. :p

solarenemy
11-28-2006, 07:22 PM
So if the mind cant control the world around it, then explain the story on the Chinese doctor who can control his body weight to a point that not even four men can move him from the spot he stands at. Or he can make himself so light he can stand with out any support on rice paper stretched on a frame. How is he able to do that if the mind is unable to effect change in the surrounding world?

I'm sorry I dont have a link. I ran across it while I was researching Bruce Lee's one inch punch and the idea of death strikes by channeling chi into the organs below the point of impact. This was the theory behind Bruce Lee's one inch punch.

Supposedly this Chinese doctor was able to focus his chi and anchor himeself to the ground with it so not even 4 men could could move him or make himself light enough to stand on stretched ricepaper. There was even old black and white video footage on the website but I can't find it know. If anyone who is in martial arts knows who I'm talking about, please let us know. He is supposed be rather renounded for his abilities.

NekoOni
11-28-2006, 07:49 PM
I'm sorry I dont have a link. I ran across it while I was researching Bruce Lee's one inch punch and the idea of death strikes by channeling chi into the organs below the point of impact. This was the theory behind Bruce Lee's one inch punch.
I used to practise Aikido. Aikido deals heavily with the concept of chi (or ki), by controlling, extending and focusing your ki you can do amazing things. HOWEVER the concept of ki is merely an aid to concentration, it allows you to focus your mind on the result you want and allow your body to flow with it. Ki does not allow you to break the laws of physics, you still have to obey the laws of momentum, the principles of leverage. Ki is only a imagination aid, not an energy in and of it's self. I've seen my sensei pull a similar trick by making his arm immovable, even with multiple student wrenching on his arm no-one could move it, but it's not magic, it's just biomechanics. Impressive but not supernatural.

AnimeWerewolf
11-28-2006, 07:51 PM
witches do exist but not in the way most people imagine them .
the old hag spinning lives and boiling babies in the forest
is nothing more than the wet dreams of monks and
priests ! so is the concept of magic and spells
a witch is more a traditional folk healer
and alchemist misunderstood and
demonised by christianity .

Kaktyc
11-28-2006, 08:10 PM
Then I'll ask of you to read the enochian calls. All 19 of them in enochian without any pause or stopping out loud and observe any type of mental reaction you recieve during so. As well things such as the tv must be turned as they are a distraction. Here's a link to a pdf
http://www.hermetic.com/browe-archive/pdf/calls2.pdf

Enochian is believe to be the language of angels which was dictated to Dr. John Dee through his Seer Edward Kelly. I dare you read all 19 in enochian and see if there is any mental effect. Here's your chance put up or shut up.

If that doesn't pull your fancy try saying the lord's prayer backwards and watch what happen in your head.

I doubt your actually going to read it thought and will just say,"It don't work" because this is the internet and ofcourse you don't have to take responsibility for anything here.

When I live everyday in paradise. Tantra is quite excellent in achieving that. Also note how you even bothered to try and argue at someone over something you don't believe in. Good to know you put so much energy into people you thing are nuts.

The existence is what we experience as we practice thus it warrants an explanation. We experence it thus it exist to us and we see results thus we search for an explanation. As I said above Put up or Shut up.

Ganic Tasa Fubim Flereous

Let me repeat myself
"Yea right, i need a magical act, to be able to touch it, taste it, smell it, and study every physical aspect of it. Until i have it, until we all have it, this whole discussion is a joke."
If you have nothing to show, no fireballs to throw, no ghosts to summon, and no levitation to present, your words have no value and can be counted as complete and utter bullshit.

I'll tell you what kind of mental reaction I'll have after reading 33 pages without stopping.

1. I will feel like a complete idiot, and will feel frustration for wasting my time.

2. Also i may experience hallucinations as reading 33 pages aloud requires quite a lot of oxygen, and doing so without stopping may easily blank you out, and you have to be an imbecile if you don't think so.
So try picking any other book and reading 33 pages out loud without stopping, and see if you get same kind of "mental reaction" rofl. :D But "I doubt your actually going to read it through and will just say,"It don't work" because this is the internet and of course you don't have to take responsibility for anything here." (c) You

So you can continue to smoke the "herbs" and have fun in the paradise roflmao :D
And of course we all will put up with that :kakashi:



2 AnimeWerewolf your avatar is giving me seizures, you damn witch! :D :D :D jk

solarenemy
11-28-2006, 08:30 PM
Let me repeat myself
"Yea right, i need a magical act, to be able to touch it, taste it, smell it, and study every physical aspect of it. Until i have it, until we all have it, this whole discussion is a joke."
If you have nothing to show, no fireballs to throw, no ghosts to summon, and no levitation to present, your words have no value and can be counted as complete and utter bullshit.

I'll tell you what kind of mental reaction I'll have after reading 33 pages without stopping.

1. I will feel like a complete idiot, and will feel frustration for wasting my time.

2. Also i may experience hallucinations as reading 33 pages aloud requires quite a lot of oxygen, and doing so without stopping may easily blank you out, and you have to be an imbecile if you don't think so.
So try picking any other book and reading 33 pages out loud without stopping, and see if you get same kind of "mental reaction" rofl. :D But "I doubt your actually going to read it through and will just say,"It don't work" because this is the internet and of course you don't have to take responsibility for anything here." (c) You

So you can continue to smoke the "herbs" and have fun in the paradise roflmao :D
And of course we all will put up with that :kakashi:



2 AnimeWerewolf your avatar is giving me seizures, you damn witch! :D :D :D jk

Again you have misinterpreted magick. There is magic which is what magicians do with slight of hand. Then there is magick which is what witches do. They DO NOT conjure spirits or make fireballs. Have you not been reading what we are telling you witches trully are? They are simply misunderstood alchemist and herbal healers. They dont do the stuff you see in movies.

The actual title of the thread should have been, Whats the difference between a real witch and a hollywood fiction witch? The entire problem is what the believers definition of a witch is and what the nonbelievers idea is are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. One is based on the fictitious and story book garbage, that would be the nonbelievers while the other is based on practice, experience, and the fact we have tried it ourselves. These would be the believers.

sf101
11-28-2006, 09:34 PM
NekoOni: Ki or Chi are real. In Magick it's mostly categorized as Will(which if anyone remembers my quote from Crowley) is one of the primary tools in magick. Therefore if willpower can cause a man to control his center of gravity then how is far fetched to use that same power to cause change?

As for physics and the like I do read up and understand them but at the sametime obscure text which may or may not have any validity also appease my search for knowledge. At the sametime there are many paralles between them most notably the elements ether, fire, water, air, and earth. Most of what is listed is at the sametime an abstract concept of what happens in the world of science.

Take mantras for instance in anime they're always seen as some religious prayer when it can't be futher from the truth. Mantra(taken from the original sanskrit text) is the power of words such as the second someone says a word like "tree" you immediately think of it. At the sametime a meaning can be placed into a word which can cause the mind to react subconsciously even if the person doesn't know the meaning. It's basic hypnotism to a whole new level wheras butchered words can be implanted to cause desired effects and yeah it does work. There's more into this but to type up everything aspect would be to type up a whole book.

Psychology runs deep in all of the occult text wheras wisdom but not knowledge is gained through experience.

MegaMick:Now this is a civilized post. I understand your point of view and agree delussion could be substituted except in the case of envokation which has slightly differing rules. As for scoring on the 22nd I'm there.

Kaktyc:Insults and fantasy witches are your arguement therefore I'll disregard you as meaningless. BTW if you can't read that many pages out loud you odviously don't do any cardio and have a bad heart especially considering I assume your sitting down.

On a last note if anyone read the giberish that was at the end of my last post it's an invocation prayer to the demon flerous. Have fun.

Kaktyc
11-28-2006, 09:49 PM
Actually thanks to chaos magic there is a constant theory on the inner workings of magick. It's just nobody bother to try it in a scientific sense. I suggest Liber Null & Psychonaut by Peter Carroll which explains most of what magick really does and how it works.

For those who don't want to read the books the mathematical equations(From Liber Kaos also by Peter Carroll) is best seen as:
M= GL(1-A)(1-R)

M=Magic
G=Gnosis(magical trance)
L=Magic Link(Mental Focus of what you want to happen)
A=Consicous awareness(Consiousness supresses all magic)
R=Subconsicous(Belief that they can)

G,A,L, and R are evaluated on a scale of zero to one, yielding an M value also in the range of zero to one. M cannot be more than G, A, L, or R. G & L must be in the range of .8 or .9 to have any magical success. C & R must be as low as possible. M must equate to .5 or higher to have any chance of effect. M + P equates the chance of any magical success(see below).

Pm=P+(1-P)M1/p

Pm=Probability of a magical event happenning
P=Chance of happening(without magic)
M=Magic

This equation demonstrates the possiblity of magic occuring. If M=1 however anything is possible through magic but that would take a decade of practice to achieve.

It should also be noted that the above equation are missing two factors: Will/Desire. Desire effects the subconscious reducing or increasing resistance depending on the desire(Most notably used in satanic magic) and should be employed with G. This unfortunately leave room for accidental magic a.k.a tried to girlfriend and ended up raped(A note to those who watch hentai, desire to see girls raped would have that kind of magical accident).

Next constant magic does not add up. One magical act does NOT improve any others. Successive magic is meaningless.

Last equation is magical defense.
Pm= P - P x M1/(1-P)
Same as above meanings

This involves both this and the above equations. The two M are subtracted from with the bigger M in it's corresponding equation(bigger defense M is third equation, bigger offensive M is in second).

Anyone who knows simple algebra can see that mathematicly doing magic is HARD and has little chance of working at first try. If you don't believe me then ask a Chaos magician about it. I know this thread was about witches but what people are REALLY looking for is magick and this is the equations to it. On a last note the magical trance is any type of strong focus such as right at an orgasm(most commonly used in magic).

I took the time to search back and see what formulas people were talking about. I also took the time to read attentively through and find this "C & R must be as low as possible." now WTF is C here, is it a G or A?

"On a last note the magical trance is any type of strong focus such as right at an orgasm(most commonly used in magic)" This is complete bullshit, i can get into this orgasm-like condition at any second without focusing, thx to my self-development through meditations. And there is no fvckin way you can meditate in that condition, you'll just relax and enjoy like everyone does with orgasm. I use that instead of cold shower in the morning.


2 solarenemy

So you are telling me that "They are simply misunderstood alchemist and herbal healers." I just hope that my definition of alchemist = yours, where my is "People who know a lot about chemistry, that were trying to find a philosophical stone which supposedly turns lead into gold." So while trying to find formula of that stone they learned a crapload of stuff about chemistry.

Sorry, but I never heard/read that witches were involved in that too. <_<

So judging by your words, "any freakin woman that knows herbal medicine and chemistry is by default a witch." What a joke. Its not even funny.



P.S. I don't google anything. Speak for yourself please.

P.P.S. so now i'm supposed to "be prepared to read that many pages out loud" I can do that, but NOT without stop where this can only be thought of as "no air intake for 33 pages or as little as possible"



BTW your invocation prayer doesn't invocate anything :D I have Guardian Angel of the Sword (this is NOT from anime so don't bother googling) by my side, so i doubt there will be any real threat to me.

xanderman
11-28-2006, 09:50 PM
sf101 the reason that rational people attempt to explain things to people who believe irrational things such as superstitions and religions is because we hate seeing people waste their lives on nonsense. The universe is an incredibly beautiful place without all this hocus-pocus getting in the way. Instead of witchcraft try reading a book about the theory of evolution, cosmology or quantum physics, you'll find a universe much more fascinating and fufilling than your books of spells and incantations.

Also all of the effects you stated in your last post are psychosomatic (i.e. they affect your state of mind because your are expecting and even hoping they will, hence it is actually you who is changing your state of mind not the words per se), when we say witchcraft we mean some real visible changes in the real world which should be plainly visible in any controlled conditions. However we all know that no witch or supernatural practitioner would ever allow themselves to tested under controlled conditions because they would fail miserably.

What he said, I think NekoOni makes very good, clear and valid points.
Indeed healing the body through positive thinking is not magic it is indeed willpower or psychosomatic also a very healthy and realistic look on ki energy in another post, because we dont need more kids doing dragonball z ki blasts.

sf101 if you attack me on a torrent i look at you attack this forum because you attack the matterial it offers also if you want to attack me then do so on this subject not my taste or atleast let me know your tast so i can attack you on that if you like.

Also what NekoOni said in the first section of his my quote is a waste of time,
thereby i mean trying to reason with certain ppl to make them see how amazing things already are without hocus pocus.

As conclusion iam not gonna respond to this tread or in the least sf101 anymore, because hes not worth my time.

sf101
11-28-2006, 09:58 PM
I took the time to search back and see what formulas people were talking about. I also took the time to read attentively through and find this "C & R must be as low as possible." now WTF is C here, is it a G or A?

"On a last note the magical trance is any type of strong focus such as right at an orgasm(most commonly used in magic)" This is complete bullshit, i can get into this orgasm-like condition at any second without focusing, thx to my self-development through meditations. And there is no fvckin way you can meditate in that condition, you'll just relax and enjoy like everyone does with orgasm. I use that instead of cold shower in the morning. O.k. your pointing out a typo of C instead of G wow.

Also if you can get into an orgasm like state that is what Chaotes call gnosis, a state where the consciousness it suppressed where ideas, images, ect. can be implanted whichout the conscious mind knowing(mostly used in sigil magic). It could be that stuff happened and you just don't remember it. I just hope you don't have the t.v. on then I know your in trouble. Meditate more and you may be able to keep control during this state and perform magic, that is if you had any belief.

As for my taste Xanderman I'm a masochist and fan of futa so do as you please.

Kaktyc
11-28-2006, 10:04 PM
sf101 hey just so you know i have nothing against magic IF it exists. I'd gladly learn some IF i had the proof of its existence. And since there IS NO proof -> there is no magic. Its as simple as it gets without talking about high energies all that Ki and Chi and elements/demons/invocation/lucifer/other bullshit. WTH mozilla capitalizes lucifer :D AND itself :P No offence but without proof all this sounds like PURE SCAM and gets ANTI-SCAM treatment from me.



I don't watch TV :)
Typos in equation explanations are twice as bad as any other. I know because i had math problems from typos like that in the math book. :)



I'm going to meditate and sleep now, and if i see my angel slice that demon into pieces or just the demon, I'll give you a post back tomorrow saying that i was wrong and am going to learn magic. :)
BTW I specially went into that orgasm-like state while speaking that demon summoning spell of yours out loud. Will that surely summon him? :P

solarenemy
11-28-2006, 10:28 PM
sf101 hey just so you know i have nothing against magic IF it exists. I'd gladly learn some IF i had the proof of its existence. And since there IS NO proof -> there is no magic. Its as simple as it gets without talking about high energies all that Ki and Chi and elements/demons/invocation/lucifer/other bullshit. WTH mozilla capitalizes lucifer :D AND itself :P No offence but without proof all this sounds like PURE SCAM and gets ANTI-SCAM treatment from me.



I don't watch TV :)
Typos in equation explanations are twice as bad as any other. I know because i had math problems from typos like that in the math book. :)



I'm going to meditate and sleep now, and if i see my angel slice that demon into pieces or just the demon, I'll give you a post back tomorrow saying that i was wrong and am going to learn magic. :)
BTW I specially went into that orgasm-like state while speaking that demon summoning spell of yours out loud. Will that surely summon him? :P


You have prevented yourself from doing any magic EVER regardless of what state you are in. You don't get it. The moment you say its imposible or doesnt exist you have locked yourself out of ever being able to do it or witness it.

Its all apart of SF101's equation. There has to be a will for it to work and a belief that it will work or it just won't. Its just like the fire pyramid they teac you about in fire prevention. A fire needs fuel, heat, and oxygen to form and burn. You remove anyone of these and its impossible to have fire.


Once you admit disbelief or you deny its existance then magick is never going to be in your grasp in any way, shape or form. You will never be able to witness or perform it as long as you doubt it.

sf101
11-28-2006, 10:30 PM
Actually there an invocation symbol you have to draw in the air with a sword or knife or something of the like. Here's a link
http://www.ofs-demonolatry.org/invocation.htm
Demon aren't evil or anything like that so treat him with respect.

xanderman
11-28-2006, 10:30 PM
As for my taste Xanderman I'm a masochist so do as you please.

Ok last response, seeing me look at certain topic doesnt make me that.
I like shy agressive normal youngh and older women but if you think all i want is loli rape because i was browing that, thats fine, my tastes being condemnd by a masochist thats just fine, just make sure you think of me next time when you try to slap yourself in an orgasm.

edit: i was gonna type something in reply to the again and again blabering of magic but its complete and uterly useless you have been disproven by countless,
ppl in this thread even with links, evidence and pure clear levelminded reason.

Your sound like one of those ppl that is gonna write another useless book on unproven things youll turn into facts by you own hand or start the next cult, if you can get anyone to follow you at all.

really: OH MY GOD (i dont even believe in god, you made me say the G word)

NekoOni
11-28-2006, 11:25 PM
You have prevented yourself from doing any magic EVER regardless of what state you are in. You don't get it. The moment you say its imposible or doesnt exist you have locked yourself out of ever being able to do it or witness it.

Its all apart of SF101's equation. There has to be a will for it to work and a belief that it will work or it just won't. Its just like the fire pyramid they teac you about in fire prevention. A fire needs fuel, heat, and oxygen to form and burn. You remove anyone of these and its impossible to have fire.


Once you admit disbelief or you deny its existance then magick is never going to be in your grasp in any way, shape or form. You will never be able to witness or perform it as long as you doubt it.
Never be able to witness it? So for all this supposed power all I have to do is disbelieve and it's neutered? Awesome so my protection against all magic could be an invocation like this "In the name of the mighty James Randi, reveal yourself fraud!" (Shamelessly lifted from PvP).

I'm going to give everyone who believes in witches here the benefit of the doubt and believe that you are only in it so you can write a book and fleece stupid people of their money. THAT is the true power of magic. Like Homeopathy, New Age, Crystal power, you'll always find people stupid enough to fork over hard-earned cash for some nonsense.

If you do really believe it though, then your Wall of Ignorance is among the most powerful I've ever encountered. Multiple posters with the twin Battering Rams of Logic and Reason were unable to penetrate your Fortress of Idiocy. You guys have fun navel gazing now, the rest of us have an amazing universe and world to explore. Peace.

sf101
11-29-2006, 05:54 AM
Never be able to witness it? So for all this supposed power all I have to do is disbelieve and it's neutered? Awesome so my protection against all magic could be an invocation like this "In the name of the mighty James Randi, reveal yourself fraud!" (Shamelessly lifted from PvP).

I'm going to give everyone who believes in witches here the benefit of the doubt and believe that you are only in it so you can write a book and fleece stupid people of their money. THAT is the true power of magic. Like Homeopathy, New Age, Crystal power, you'll always find people stupid enough to fork over hard-earned cash for some nonsense.

If you do really believe it though, then your Wall of Ignorance is among the most powerful I've ever encountered. Multiple posters with the twin Battering Rams of Logic and Reason were unable to penetrate your Fortress of Idiocy. You guys have fun navel gazing now, the rest of us have an amazing universe and world to explore. Peace. Nice post just needs a couple of clarifications.
1. Even if you don't believe in magick you can still be effected. You won't reconize it and will rationalize it as "an act of god" thus you'll never be able to witness it. If you were cursed all you'd say is "it's just bad luck" unaware and unable to defend against what is happening. Ignorace in magick actually makes you alot easier to hit.

2. Money books such as new age garbage can be easily avoided in search of authentic grimores which actually work. Among good modern day authors there are: Aleister Crowley, Franz Bardon, Anton LaVey, Peter Carrol, Phil Hine, Simon, S. Connoly, The Three initiates, and Paul Hudson. I could list more but you get the point. Those retarted money books are for fluffy bunny wiccans who don't know a damn thing no matter how scewed it is.

3. Your the one with the fortress of idiocy here. There is no known logic behind the magick true but I wonder if Columbus had the same response when he said the world wasn't flat. I mean how could such flat ground be round anyway it isn't like they knew about gravity. My evidence is simple I practice and obtain the desired results therefore unless you can revoke all the success I've had practicing and for that matter the success any other person had practicing your arguements are pointless to me.

Ratchet sydrome is a ***** especially when you have fools argueing out of ignorance.

MegaMick
11-29-2006, 08:00 AM
Well, for you guys who can't think of magic stuff without thinking of proofs and evidence, let's put it like this. It's like believing in the String Theory, since it's impossible to prove. The way I get it, magic works the same way: If you want to believe, go ahead and do. If you don't want to believe, go ahead and don't. It's only going to affect the way you think either way. Not the way others think.
So, in my opinion, these posts where you ask for proofs, or call the other side ignorant, or try to force others into seeing it your own way, are a waste of time for you, me, and everyone else.

Kaktyc
11-29-2006, 08:55 AM
2 sf101

Aright then do you mind telling me wtf is this sign supposed to mean?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/kvakerok/WTFisthis.jpg
Its semicircle connecting two parrallel lines.
If you guess right... i might start believing in magic :)
hint, might be connected to summoning or focus techniques. :p

And from your words if you curse me and i get like bad luck non-stop, my ignorance would prevent me from believing in magic. See, having bad luck doesn't have to be result from magic. I mean, all you have to do to prove yourself is show something that can only be explained by magic theory. In medicine if we have known symptoms we first try to find a known disease, if the symptoms are unknown, then and only then we say "okay this is a NEW disease, we have to study it and learn about it as much as we can".
I doubt its so hard to show something unexplaind assuming that you actually posess magic. And i promise not to call fireballs, "unexplained self-combustion of air" :)


2 solarenemy

So you are telling me that "They are simply misunderstood alchemist and herbal healers." I just hope that my definition of alchemist = yours, where my is "People who know a lot about chemistry, that were trying to find a philosophical stone which supposedly turns lead into gold." So while trying to find formula of that stone they learned a crapload of stuff about chemistry. Also they were the ones who first discovered Arsenic (See periodic table for more info) if i remember it right.

Sorry, but I never heard/read that witches were involved in that too. <_<

Judging by your words: "any freakin woman that knows herbal medicine and chemistry AND believes in magic, is by default a witch." What a joke. Its not even funny.

Ahem, but no discussion until you reply to this - ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

monwren5
11-29-2006, 09:03 AM
Of course witches exist. What do you think they were doing during the cold war?

Kaktyc
11-29-2006, 09:05 AM
Of course witches exist. What do you think they were doing during the cold war?

procreating? :P :D
Well since they don't exist, they didn't do anything.

sf101
11-29-2006, 09:39 AM
2 sf101
Aright then do you mind telling me wtf is this sign supposed to mean?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/kvakerok/WTFisthis.jpg
Its semicircle connecting two parrallel lines.
If you guess right... i might start believing in magic :)
hint, might be connected to summoning or focus techniques. :p Let's see it's either
A. a cheap drawing in ms paint
B. a sigil of sorts
C. something out of geometry class


And from your words if you curse me and i get like bad luck non-stop, my ignorance would prevent me from believing in magic. See, having bad luck doesn't have to be result from magic. I mean, all you have to do to prove yourself is show something that can only be explained by magic theory. In medicine if we have known symptoms we first try to find a known disease, if the symptoms are unknown, then and only then we say "okay this is a NEW disease, we have to study it and learn about it as much as we can". I doubt its so hard to show something unexplaind assuming that you actually posess magic. And i promise not to call fireballs, "unexplained self-combustion of air" :)
Let's see what part of "cannot go against nature" didn't you understand. Every magical act need a logical basis or it isn't going to work. Therefore anything done would be chalked up to chance as well I believe I explained this already. You're still to busy thinking of garbage like that charmed sitcom or the wizard of oz therefore you couldn't understand. Whenever you clean all that out of your head I'll be ready to talk. Results of what I desire are enough evidence for me which is why my mind can't be swayed away from belief. Yours is merely a lack of unexplained aka supernatural which isn't what magic is at all.

There's nothing supernatural about it at all, we just lack an explanation. We practice, see results but have barely scratched the surface on how it works much like how we have no idea how consciousness works even though we have most of the brain mapped out. Our evidence is experence and results but as it can all be set aside as chance, luck, ect. you'll never believe and I don't care. More fun for me.

Kaktyc
11-29-2006, 10:08 AM
Gosh, you are saying "There's nothing supernatural about it at all, we just lack an explanation." Explanation of WHAT? What are you talkin about? magic? Where is it? In your brain? Oh rly? Show it to me. Can you turn water into wine? No? Then stfu and don't try to force your point of view over me.

Hey i'm not against magic, i can't be against something that does not exist. I can assume that it exists, but there's not going to be any theories about its existense created by me.

Again "We practice, see results" what are you talkin about? Where are the results? Show them to me. If i can't see or touch or smell or hear them, they do not exist.


If that demon doesn't show up you're out :D



[EDIT]
You don't know all the abilities of my mind, so you cannot say "You're still to busy thinking of garbage like that charmed sitcom or the wizard of oz therefore you couldn't understand." and be right about it. When i speak of magic, no crap like fantasy is garbaging my brain (since i don't read fantasy, except Clifford Saymak or whatever his last name is)

Assumption is actually believing into something 100% for a while, at least for me. So while doing an invocation prayer i actually assume that it IS possible, otherwise I wouldn't even bother trying it. People who lie to themselves can go and have seckz with themselves. Lieing to yourself is a step towards losing sanity.


BTW, of course its a MS painting, what did you expect, a photo? :D And yea, way to get away without actually answering. Just as well i can call that invocation spell a bunch of meaningless words. Same thing, different definition.


We are grown up people here, if you are not a scammer don't behave like one.


BTW you call it flerous and its flereous in the spell, which one is right? How is it supposed to be pronounced? i'll try it spell-wise first.

StarWarsGalaxies
11-29-2006, 11:00 AM
2 sf101

Aright then do you mind telling me wtf is this sign supposed to mean?
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a379/kvakerok/WTFisthis.jpg


Pfff, DUH! I mean look at it, everone know what that is...

It's a poor choppy version of MegaMick's avatar!

MegaMick
11-29-2006, 03:40 PM
Exactly! And kaktyc's summon did work! Because I am the demon flerous, and I made him feel like drawing that thing in Ms Paint! Ofc I tried to make him draw my avatar, but he's not very good with paint and I didn't bother trying to correct him... It looked funny the way it is, and it would make sf101 think "wth is that" when kyktac showed it to him.... :D


...Seriously now, on this recent believers Vs non-believers series of posts, seems to me that there is a communication problem here.
The confusion is if Magic is either supernatural, or not. The way I understand it, from sf101's posts, is that all effects from magic can be explained by physics and our natural laws. Something that could happen anyway, but with willpower. Like increasing the chances that it will happen:

Something like wanting a dice to turn up with the "1" side up, throwing the dice, and it ending up with the "1" side up.

That's what kaktyc didn't understand from sf101's posts, and that's why I think it's weird that you're asking for proofs. For christ's sake. If the dice turns up with "1", is there really a way to prove it was magic? Of course not! Since there was a chance it could happen due to known physics laws anyway.

Whatever it is that magic will cause, it is not something "impossible" or "supernatural". It's something that could happen, anyway. I hope I got it right, and I hope this helps kyktac and the others understand that their definition of magic is flawed.

kyktac, turning water into wine wouldn't be magic, simply because it's not possible. If someone turned water into wine, it would be a freaggin miracle. Literally. Same with fireballs... Or physical manifestations of Ki, or any of the sort. It's not magic. That's supernatural miracles.

Making magic is making a chanceful (but real) event happen.
I hope that made it clear...

I'm guessing that, after this explanation, you can understand how that global orgasm thing could work, and still there wouldn't be any proof that it did. Just the result. A result explained by the known natural laws.

sf101
11-29-2006, 03:57 PM
Gosh, you are saying "There's nothing supernatural about it at all, we just lack an explanation." Explanation of WHAT? What are you talkin about? magic? Where is it? In your brain? Oh rly? Show it to me. Can you turn water into wine? No? Then stfu and don't try to force your point of view over me. In other words you can't see it therefore it doesn't exist? Good to know you don't believe in air. Just by this I can see you're only thinking of superpowers which isn't magic. You can't turn water into wine without a transmutation of sorts and even then I doubt water has the properties needed to become fermented grape juice(that's what wine is). Magic isn't visable but when you apparently do a "pointless ritual" where as the mind is focused on a specific result like gaining a girlfriend of certain characteristics with afterwards finding what your looking for almost immediately afterward you tend to see that as a result. Likewise a curse which the person ends up in the hospital without any explanation other than an accident or "act of god". Those are results from something we cannot see nor explain.


Hey i'm not against magic, i can't be against something that does not exist. Conflicts what you say above and is the reason why you'll never have any real magical experiences. Chaotes have a saying which goes "Nothing is true, Everything is permitted". If you ever figure out the meaning behind that(or just google it) you may understand, or you won't and will disregard it as meaningless much like Christians when they condemned Galileo for saying the earth revolved around the sun. They saw a rise and fall therefore assumed the earth was stationary and look at what we know now.


I can assume that it exists, but there's not going to be any theories about its existense created by me. Assumption does not equate belief therefore you will have no resultes.


Again "We practice, see results" what are you talkin about? Where are the results? Show them to me. If i can't see or touch or smell or hear them, they do not exist.A girlfriend isn't solid evidence neither is getting a new job. Good health can't be considered magical either no matter the invisable influence it has. You don't belief then fine but ofcourse there will always be what I've gained and learned from theurgy.


If that demon doesn't show up you're out :D He won't mostly due to your subconscious disbelief and ofcourse the psychic censor.


You don't know all the abilities of my mind, so you cannot say "You're still to busy thinking of garbage like that charmed sitcom or the wizard of oz therefore you couldn't understand." and be right about it. When i speak of magic, no crap like fantasy is garbaging my brain (since i don't read fantasy, except Clifford Saymak or whatever his last name is) If that isn't true the why is it you constantly argue about supernatural abilities such as "fireballs"


Assumption is actually believing into something 100% for a while, at least for me. So while doing an invocation prayer i actually assume that it IS possible, otherwise I wouldn't even bother trying it. People who lie to themselves can go and have seckz with themselves. Lieing to yourself is a step towards losing sanity.Assumption is self-critism of an event therefore not a belief in it or even enough to obtain results. From what I can see your A & R are way up therefore you will not gain or see anything.


BTW, of course its a MS painting, what did you expect, a photo? :D And yea, way to get away without actually answering. Just as well i can call that invocation spell a bunch of meaningless words. Same thing, different definition. I'll refer to the phrase "Nothing is True, Everything is permitted" and restate that you don't believe therefore you will not gain or see anything. It's a known fact that the mind suppresses anything "Magical" which is why there is such thing as ritual and why a strong trance such as gnosis is used during so.


We are grown up people here, if you are not a scammer don't behave like one.I fail to see the point in the reasoning here and will see as it is, flaming.


BTW you call it flerous and its flereous in the spell, which one is right? How is it supposed to be pronounced? i'll try it spell-wise first.Playing with typos again? Either way no belief no results therefore for you it is a bunch of meaningless words. I'll reference Paul Hudson's view on what's need for magic called "the witch's pyramid"
Faith:Belief in what your doing and that you can obtain results
Imagination: Conjuring up what you want to happen in your mind(only for enchantment)
Will: Conscious desire and power of thought
Secrecy: Pure ignorace by who is going to be effected or causing him to fear what can happen no matter how far his disbelief goes.

Now that I think about I don't see you so how can I be sure you actually exist? For all I know you could just be a hongfire bot.

Kaktyc
11-29-2006, 05:16 PM
Even if it resembles MegaMick's avatar its not it :)
In fact i knew this sign loooong ago before finding this forum.

sf101
Imagine that i have two people inside me. One of us really wants to see the magic work, and another doesn't and thinks its all bullshit. So far you're only helping the second guy.

Hey if you manage to throw a dice 20 times in a row and get same result, I'll believe that magic is true. O course we take a computer simulated die to avoid any type of "physical interference" and die being unbalanced.

BTW I'm talking about fireballs, because creating one IS possible. My definition of fireball is "a ball of concentrated plasma/electricity at high temperature" So considering self development to a higher level up to body cells manipulation, I'd say one could generate enough energy to create a thingy like that, not that one would be able to control it (or even that). :) Once again seemingly nothing supernatural, as this things have been created by nature (lightning ball), why can't I do same? I mean, yea I'll have to utilize like A LOAD of energy to create one, but its worth it ;)
Think of getting body manipulation to a level of being able to conduct nuclear fusion inside yourself.
Since you've been to my meditation thread, you already know that i think of body as of machine, so if your cells start to create and utilize alternative power sources, i see nothing wrong with that.

Just so you know about that gnosis thing, its really not any kind of special trance, you can easily "get" to it from shivers that you have in the cold environment, they are very similar in nature.

Talking about the non-supernatural magic that you described, as in "manipulating the fate and future", my point of view is "you are creator of your own fate" and if its not that way I wouldn't be here now. If your magic gives you so much self-confidence that you are willing to believe in it - go ahead and do so, I'm not standing in your way (anymore :p)

Just so you know I believe that I can do anything, I'm jut too lazy to do anything.

btw, I might come to believing in magic myself, as soon as i get more proofs for my incubus abilities. I had some possible cases of that, but never certain, and I doubt that any woman would confess to something like that. Need some more scientific experiments. Any volunteeresses? :)

solarenemy
11-29-2006, 05:18 PM
Thats a very good explanation MegaMike. Now if Kaktyc will just read your post and understand what it says versus what he is thinking magic is then he might understand that his ideas of magic is wrong and thats why he cant understand it.

He also needs to understand that as long as there is a shroud of doubt or dibelief in his mind that is impossible for him to witness or practice magic. Somebody could perform magic right in front of him but he would never realize it because he doesnt believe or accept it in the first place.

All magic does as MegaMike said is influence things that could already happen in the natural world. It simply increases the chance of it happening by application of will power towards the desired result. You CAN NOT do something that is physicly impossible with magic. It has to be able to naturally occure and magic simply increases the chances of it occuring. This is what Kaktyc needs to understand.

sf101
11-29-2006, 05:47 PM
Imagine that i have two people inside me. One of us really wants to see the magic work, and another doesn't and thinks its all bullshit. So far you're only helping the second guy. In otherwords you have a division within yourself? A self-conflicting persona? Simple really one is subconscious belief while the other is optimism. Which is which I don't know but from what I you type the second guy feeds on doubt. Self or otherwise.


Hey if you manage to throw a dice 20 times in a row and get same result, I'll believe that magic is true. O course we take a computer simulated die to avoid any type of "physical interference" and die being unbalanced.I believe there is an actual program like that except it's a random number generator which was suppose to help with one's intuition. Not sure if it works though but ofcourse psychic abilities and magic are two different things.


BTW I'm talking about fireballs, because creating one IS possible. My definition of fireball is "a ball of concentrated plasma/electricity at high temperature" So considering self development to a higher level up to body cells manipulation, I'd say one could generate enough energy to create a thingy like that, not that one would be able to control it (or even that). :) Once again seemingly nothing supernatural, as this things have been created by nature (lightning ball), why can't I do same? I mean, yea I'll have to utilize like A LOAD of energy to create one, but its worth it ;)
Think of getting body manipulation to a level of being able to conduct nuclear fusion inside yourself. A couple of problems here.
1. The human body would not be able to stand such temperatures
2. Nuclear fission would cause bodily mutations and radiation poisoning if not downright death.
3. The amount of energy needed would kill anyone who is withing seven feet of it because of the intense heat.
4. Before you pull out the electric eel arguement they have a special organ which allows them to produce an electric field. Humans lack such organs.
5. This isn't magick it's psychic abilities.


Since you've been to my meditation thread, you already know that i think of body as of machine, so if your cells start to create and utilize alternative power sources, i see nothing wrong with that. Being well versed in Hindu tantra I'll say the said "superpowers" are supposedly possible through void meditation and yoga which awakens the kundalini serpent between the genitals & butthole. In the east they call such supernatural abilities sadihis(not sure of the spelling). As the serpent travels upwards new levels of consciousness are achieved as it goes through the six chakras(energy centers on the spine). When it reaches the thousand petal lotus on top of the head union is made with Shiva(hindu god) wheras liberation is obtained. What superpowers sadihis give vary but much like magick nobody looks to see if it's true.


Just so you know about that gnosis thing, its really not any kind of special trance, you can easily "get" to it from shivers that you have in the cold environment, they are very similar in nature.Known fact the state of gnosis has a variant of ways it can be achieved whether it be drugs, focus, pain, pleasure ect. Maybe a cold environment could cause it but it's of no concern to me.


Talking about the non-supernatural magic that you described, as in "manipulating the fate and future", my point of view is "you are creator of your own fate" and if its not that way I wouldn't be here now. If your magic gives you so much self-confidence that you are willing to believe in it - go ahead and do so, I'm not standing in your way (anymore :p)"I accept your surrender"
Steven Cobert


Just so you know I believe that I can do anything, I'm jut too lazy to do anything. Isn't that contrary to what you said above?


btw, I might come to believing in magic myself, as soon as i get more proofs for my incubus abilities. I had some possible cases of that, but never certain, and I doubt that any woman would confess to something like that. Need some more scientific experiments. Any volunteeresses? :)I suggest doing some research into psychic vampirism.

Kaktyc
11-29-2006, 06:44 PM
In otherwords you have a division within yourself? A self-conflicting persona? Simple really one is subconscious belief while the other is optimism. Which is which I don't know but from what I you type the second guy feeds on doubt. Self or otherwise.

I believe there is an actual program like that except it's a random number generator which was suppose to help with one's intuition. Not sure if it works though but ofcourse psychic abilities and magic are two different things.

A couple of problems here.
1. The human body would not be able to stand such temperatures
2. Nuclear fission would cause bodily mutations and radiation poisoning if not downright death.
3. The amount of energy needed would kill anyone who is withing seven feet of it because of the intense heat.
4. Before you pull out the electric eel arguement they have a special organ which allows them to produce an electric field. Humans lack such organs.
5. This isn't magick it's psychic abilities.

Being well versed in Hindu tantra I'll say the said "superpowers" are supposedly possible through void meditation and yoga which awakens the kundalini serpent between the genitals & butthole. In the east they call such supernatural abilities sadihis(not sure of the spelling). As the serpent travels upwards new levels of consciousness are achieved as it goes through the six chakras(energy centers on the spine). When it reaches the thousand petal lotus on top of the head union is made with Shiva(hindu god) wheras liberation is obtained. What superpowers sadihis give vary but much like magick nobody looks to see if it's true.

Known fact the state of gnosis has a variant of ways it can be achieved whether it be drugs, focus, pain, pleasure ect. Maybe a cold environment could cause it but it's of no concern to me.

"I accept your surrender"
Steven Cobert

Isn't that contrary to what you said above?

I suggest doing some research into psychic vampirism.

I don't have a division within myself, I'd call that hmmm community like left and right brain parts if they were separated :) Its Creativity/Imagination vs Logic/Analysis.

I'm a programmer and it will take me no longer than 15 minutes to write a die simulating program in Java. And yea random number generator is involved in there, it seeds on system time in milliseconds or any other random stuff.

I don't see anything psychic about manipulating your own body the way you want.

About point #4 you are wrong, Every human nerve cell is able to do that. In fact your cells are doing that right now as you are reading this, unless you are animated dead or a robot :) Sorry to disappoint you but i know Human Anatomy very well and if you don't you shouldn't argue about something you don't know well. As they say "fight on the grounds that you know well, gives you tactical advantage".

* As you are not into bio, I'll go into more detail. Since the actual fusion of sperm and egg, there are several types of cells that develop from the embryo cell. But theres this one type that doesn't have any specialization like all others do, and is origin for all of the other types. It can morph into any type of cells under some chemical reaction. Now think that you still have these cells somewhere inside you. They are able to morph into anything your body may need. They just need a slight push. The catch here is to get all your cells to be able to morph.
Man you ARE a colony of several million (if not billion, i don't feel like counting) LIVING cells. Feel them. They are practically your slaves and will do anything for you.


Nuclear fusion and nuclear fission are different, exactly opposite processes.
For how long your body lives, there is enough time to accumulate enough lead to shield yourself from the radiation :)

It doesn't have to be a fireball, lightning bolt is enough. Also there is this material (don't know the name in english, and too lazy to look up in the dictionary) that has real low heat conductivity, and is a perfect heat insulator. Anyways, imitating eel's organ would be a pretty good step towards the aim. Also their organ produces electric current, not field.

While wondering through my own body i haven't found anything like 7 chakras, if did I would surely utilize them.

Its not a surrender, I said that I'm not going to argue with you about something that i have no chance of proving to you since your whole world perception relies on that. The chance is absolutely close to zero, of me proving to you through such thing as internet that your world perception is wrong. I mean some people don't accept it, even when it punches them in the face (fanatics), so there is simply nothing to talk about in there. Hey nobody likes to be wrong, but at least I am able to accept that I am when I am. So I am wrong at thinking that I can show my point of view to you. :) Hey you just can't drop something you heavily rely on, like that. If it keeps you sane, I'm ok. :)

Me being able to do anything doesn't mean you are, or anybody else for that matter :) :) :)
I'm perceiving this as a trick of my godly bored imagination, and treat this life as a game, hope it doesn't offend you that you are my imaginary opponent over imaginary internet :)

Researches are boring, i don't do boring stuff :neko: :D :kakashi:


2 solarenemy read my post with the sign please, end of it.

solarenemy
11-29-2006, 07:34 PM
Just give up SF101 he's a lost cause and just enjoys pulling your chain. He already stated he is a programmer so that right there should tell you the problem. He also apparantly doesnt know much about stem cell research or he would know once you reach adult hood the stem cells in your body become inactive. This is why they are looking for new sources of young productive stem cells. He also doesnt realize that no shileding of any kind will protect you from the heat of fire or the many thousand degrees of a lightning bolt.

Dude if it comes from your body, it must come into contact with your cells. So you will be touching a multimillion volt lightning and being exposed to its many thousand degree heat. Same with fussion and fission. There is still dariation in both forms just no radioactive waste in one. Your body would still be in contact with it due to the cells producing it.

Just face it, his idea of a witch is the fairy tale witch. He has no consept of what a real witch is even thought we put in front of him in black and white.

Kaktyc
11-29-2006, 08:54 PM
I have to triple quote myself on your idea of a witch:
"So you are telling me that "They(witches) are simply misunderstood alchemist and herbal healers." I just hope that my definition of alchemist = yours, where my is "People who know a lot about chemistry, that were trying to find a philosophical stone which supposedly turns lead into gold." So while trying to find formula of that stone they learned a crapload of stuff about chemistry.

Sorry, but I never heard/read that witches were involved in that too. <_<

So judging by your words, "any freakin woman that knows herbal medicine and chemistry is by default a witch." What a joke. Its not even funny."

Am i right? So if i go and change my gender right now, as well as get persuaded by you that magic does exist i will become a witch? -_-
I do know some herbal medicine, not much, and do know some chemistry. Or in order to qualify for a witch i got to do some mysterious "alchemy" while searching for philosophical stone? I think YOU guys are having trouble DEFINING your witches, let alone persuading others that they exist. Sorry, but YOU FAIL. :rolleyes:

"He also apparantly doesnt know much about stem cell research or he would know once you reach adult hood the stem cells in your body become inactive." I know that, and i also know that they don't know WHY they become inactive. If they can't find the solution from outside i might as well search for it from the inside.

"This is why they are looking for new sources of young productive stem cells." Yea right they should make the fat rich bald mofos meditate to get control of those that are inactive :D think before you say, okay? You do know that main reason for getting young productive stem cells is cosmetic hair restorations and stuff like that, which provides lots of dead green American presidents - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the research?


"He also doesnt realize that no shileding of any kind will protect you from the heat of fire or the many thousand degrees of a lightning bolt."
Hey If i get my body to GENERATE that kind of energy, i will surely find a way to SHIELD it. :D

Electricity DOES NOT have ANY temperature. NEITHER DOES LIGHTNING BOLT.
Temperature gets GENERATED by electric current passing through a conductor, where the amount if it is affected only by RESISTANCE, DIAMETER , AND LENGTH of a conductor.
AND since lightning RUNS THROUGH AIR, which is one of the best insulators, we get huge temperature build up. So believe me at any end of this lightning there would not be many degrees Celsius.

"Your body would still be in contact with it due to the cells producing it." I never wrote that my cells are going to conduct a nuclear fusion or fission themselves, it would be many times easier to get them to build a working nuclear reactor inside me, since it only generates heat (NOT ELECTRICITY like some people might think), its all I'll ever need for energy.


As a side note, I'm not planning to do stuff like that anytime soon, its still all theory (but at least working one, unlike some magical bullsh!t), but hey if you ever get electrocuted by a bare hand, you'll know that its me :)



[EDIT]
Come to think of this what you say is: "I believe in some bullshit that nobody can see or touch or smell or hear, but it helps me in my everyday life", change the words "some bullshit" to "magic" :D
I'd faster believe in "magical" effects of LSD/any_other_hallucinatory_drug_with_depression_side_ effect than your "magic".


Also, what makes you think that I'm lost to you just because I'm a programmer? Just curious. i want to make instant judgments like that too. :)
In fact I'm going to make some right now.

solarenemy - at most high school student, that has problems with physics and probably issues with religion (if parents believe in any) :)
Knows how to use google but has problems utilizing the knowledge. ;) Intolerant to the intolerance :O

sf101 outsider of a society that looks for calmness and safety in probably drugs or/and (if not drugs) meditations, persuading oneself that he/she has traveled to paradise. Most probably usually wears some weird outfit, and is considered a freak by neighbors (if neighbors aren't same) Looks for as many proofs of magic (for [him/her]self) as possible, in order to make inner world more stable, possible multiple personalities that are considered by him/her as demons. Attracts girls by the weird look, and thinks that those are doings of magic, lacks self-confidence - all of it is built on magic belief. One (probably real) personality does not believe in magic (reasons why looking for proofs) and is constantly pushed down inside the depths of his poor suffering mind. Damn i feel pity for him now :x *cries*

Frozen Frog
11-29-2006, 09:35 PM
They do exist...well..sorta...not to say i have ran ,bump ,crashed , knocked over a witch before. (if that's da case they'd already frozen me, watch me thaw and freeze me again).

Most common time for witches to come out to public is none other than halloween night/day(yearly stockup).

NekoOni
11-29-2006, 10:06 PM
The witches' proofs here sound suspiciously like the proofs of fundamentalist religious people.

"Oh our beliefs are beyond logic and science, therefore you can't disprove them, therefore they are real".

WARNING LOGIC FAILURE!

But please do continue it's terribly amusing to listen to the fruitcakes attempting to argue their point.

solarenemy
11-29-2006, 10:10 PM
I have to triple quote myself on your idea of a witch:
"So you are telling me that "They(witches) are simply misunderstood alchemist and herbal healers." I just hope that my definition of alchemist = yours, where my is "People who know a lot about chemistry, that were trying to find a philosophical stone which supposedly turns lead into gold." So while trying to find formula of that stone they learned a crapload of stuff about chemistry.

Sorry, but I never heard/read that witches were involved in that too. <_<

So judging by your words, "any freakin woman that knows herbal medicine and chemistry is by default a witch." What a joke. Its not even funny."

Am i right? So if i go and change my gender right now, as well as get persuaded by you that magic does exist i will become a witch? -_-
I do know some herbal medicine, not much, and do know some chemistry. Or in order to qualify for a witch i got to do some mysterious "alchemy" while searching for philosophical stone? I think YOU guys are having trouble DEFINING your witches, let alone persuading others that they exist. Sorry, but YOU FAIL. :rolleyes:

"He also apparantly doesnt know much about stem cell research or he would know once you reach adult hood the stem cells in your body become inactive." I know that, and i also know that they don't know WHY they become inactive. If they can't find the solution from outside i might as well search for it from the inside.

"This is why they are looking for new sources of young productive stem cells." Yea right they should make the fat rich bald mofos meditate to get control of those that are inactive :D think before you say, okay? You do know that main reason for getting young productive stem cells is cosmetic hair restorations and stuff like that, which provides lots of dead green American presidents - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the research?


"He also doesnt realize that no shileding of any kind will protect you from the heat of fire or the many thousand degrees of a lightning bolt."
Hey If i get my body to GENERATE that kind of energy, i will surely find a way to SHIELD it. :D

Electricity DOES NOT have ANY temperature. NEITHER DOES LIGHTNING BOLT.
Temperature gets GENERATED by electric current passing through a conductor, where the amount if it is affected only by RESISTANCE, DIAMETER , AND LENGTH of a conductor.
AND since lightning RUNS THROUGH AIR, which is one of the best insulators, we get huge temperature build up. So believe me at any end of this lightning there would not be many degrees Celsius.

"Your body would still be in contact with it due to the cells producing it." I never wrote that my cells are going to conduct a nuclear fusion or fission themselves, it would be many times easier to get them to build a working nuclear reactor inside me, since it only generates heat (NOT ELECTRICITY like some people might think), its all I'll ever need for energy.


As a side note, I'm not planning to do stuff like that anytime soon, its still all theory (but at least working one, unlike some magical bullsh!t), but hey if you ever get electrocuted by a bare hand, you'll know that its me :)



[EDIT]
Come to think of this what you say is: "I believe in some bullshit that nobody can see or touch or smell or hear, but it helps me in my everyday life", change the words "some bullshit" to "magic" :D
I'd faster believe in "magical" effects of LSD/any_other_hallucinatory_drug_with_depression_side_ effect than your "magic".


Also, what makes you think that I'm lost to you just because I'm a programmer? Just curious. i want to make instant judgments like that too. :)
In fact I'm going to make some right now.

solarenemy - at most high school student, that has problems with physics and probably issues with religion (if parents believe in any) :)
Knows how to use google but has problems utilizing the knowledge. ;) Intolerant to the intolerance :O

sf101 outsider of a society that looks for calmness and safety in probably drugs or/and (if not drugs) meditations, persuading oneself that he/she has traveled to paradise. Most probably usually wears some weird outfit, and is considered a freak by neighbors (if neighbors aren't same) Looks for as many proofs of magic (for [him/her]self) as possible, in order to make inner world more stable, possible multiple personalities that are considered by him/her as demons. Attracts girls by the weird look, and thinks that those are doings of magic, lacks self-confidence - all of it is built on magic belief. One (probably real) personality does not believe in magic (reasons why looking for proofs) and is constantly pushed down inside the depths of his poor suffering mind. Damn i feel pity for him now :x *cries*



Hmm guess your wrong. I am 38 and work for LAI Games as their Regional Service and Support tech for America. I am they're only tech that covers all of America as well as interoffice IT managment. I have been an electronic tech for over 15 years and am certifiead in all phases of soldering with military certs and IPC-610A certs as well. My comment about you being a programmer is that they are too analytical to understand the concept of a witch they we are trying to convey to you.

The witch that is in your head and your idea of one DOES NOT EXIST. Yes the witch that you refer to does not exist. However the witches that are real and the same ones that SF101 and I are trying to get you to realize, do exist.

Refresher: Your witch DOES NOT exist. Our witch DOES exist. Stop being so analytical about the whole idea and just be open minded about it. There are many stories and legends over the years that have been glamourized and fluffed up beyond they're origin. Dracula is fine example. He was nothing more then a King named Vlad Dracula who went mad and empaled all his enemy on spears and left them for all to see along the countryside. From that he became Dracula a blood thirsty vampire. The original story is by far no where near as interesting as what Dracula means to people now.

Witches are the same. They begin as people who where able to force change through they're will. But for some reason most likely christianity, they became evil demon summoning ugly women who could do everything from riding a broom to freezing a person and casting fireballs. Those are not real witches. Those like Dracula, Jesus, and your witches, even ghost are stories that began as an uninteresting story but over the years people added they're flavour to it and it grew into what it is now.

Again your witch does not exist, ours do and are real. End of debate!

sf101
11-29-2006, 10:30 PM
As this goes on I'm feeling less and less of a discussion and more of a flame war. Oh well let's see what's been posted.


I don't have a division within myself, I'd call that hmmm community like left and right brain parts if they were separated :) Its Creativity/Imagination vs Logic/Analysis. Looks like I'm right there is a division. Mine go hand in hand as I acknowledge that there are such things as illogical actions which in the long run make sense. That's called wisdom.


I don't see anything psychic about manipulating your own body the way you want.Psychic: Nown: of or pertaining to the human soul or mind; mental. By that definition body manipulation is infact psychic.


About point #4 you are wrong, Every human nerve cell is able to do that. In fact your cells are doing that right now as you are reading this, unless you are animated dead or a robot :) Sorry to disappoint you but i know Human Anatomy very well and if you don't you shouldn't argue about something you don't know well. As they say "fight on the grounds that you know well, gives you tactical advantage". You fail to take into account the voltage. If there was a thing possible we wouldn't have to worry about electrocution. There may be a synaptic response but that as well is caused by chemical reaction which set it off. We have nothing in our body that could allow us to discharge "lighting bolts" or anything of the sort. You need to bone up on your anatomy or see a guy get electrocuted, either one.


* As you are not into bio, I'll go into more detail. Since the actual fusion of sperm and egg, there are several types of cells that develop from the embryo cell. But theres this one type that doesn't have any specialization like all others do, and is origin for all of the other types. It can morph into any type of cells under some chemical reaction. Now think that you still have these cells somewhere inside you. They are able to morph into anything your body may need. They just need a slight push. The catch here is to get all your cells to be able to morph.
Man you ARE a colony of several million (if not billion, i don't feel like counting) LIVING cells. Feel them. They are practically your slaves and will do anything for you. Referencing solarenemy stem cells lose their ability in adulthood to change. Once again you read too much science fiction. Another thing don't bring up mutation or medatative superpowers because that's a self-defeating arguement and would prove my point.


Nuclear fusion and nuclear fission are different, exactly opposite processes. For how long your body lives, there is enough time to accumulate enough lead to shield yourself from the radiation :) Don't entirely understand this one but from the looks of it your saying to absorb lead into the body? You'd die of lead poisoning long before that.


It doesn't have to be a fireball, lightning bolt is enough. Also there is this material (don't know the name in english, and too lazy to look up in the dictionary) that has real low heat conductivity, and is a perfect heat insulator. Anyways, imitating eel's organ would be a pretty good step towards the aim. Also their organ produces electric current, not field.Heat insulation would be pointless since the body cannot stand those kind of temperatures and I don't think getting surgery to have something imitate the eel's organ would help alot either.


While wondering through my own body i haven't found anything like 7 chakras, if did I would surely utilize them. There are six and are believed to disapear when one dies. There is also the notion that they exist in the subtle/astral body.


Its not a surrender, I said that I'm not going to argue with you about something that i have no chance of proving to you since your whole world perception relies on that. The chance is absolutely close to zero, of me proving to you through such thing as internet that your world perception is wrong. I mean some people don't accept it, even when it punches them in the face (fanatics), so there is simply nothing to talk about in there. Hey nobody likes to be wrong, but at least I am able to accept that I am when I am. So I am wrong at thinking that I can show my point of view to you. :) Hey you just can't drop something you heavily rely on, like that. If it keeps you sane, I'm ok. :) Let's recall what were your arguements again? Oh yeah a notion of magic being supernatural when I repeatedly state it isn't. Saying the old arguement "I believe it when I see it" which won't work considering any that is done magical has logical basis when it happens. I ability to increase chance would be a correct statement. You argue that you can sense it therefore it doesn't exist. There are those who conflict and can sense it but ofcourse you claim it's all a fraud therefore even if magic was to be a proven fact you'd still deny since you can't understand. Ofcourse I'll assume your an Atheist and are too busy wining about the christian majority keeping you down.


Me being able to do anything doesn't mean you are, or anybody else for that matter :) :) :)
I'm perceiving this as a trick of my godly bored imagination, and treat this life as a game, hope it doesn't offend you that you are my imaginary opponent over imaginary internet :) Got it you don't exist therefore
"I accept your surrender"

To Solarenemy: I keep going because this is entertaining and gets my post count up.

As for the other post by Kaktyc it's really shows how little of a life he lives to have to attempt to belittle people on the internet to feel better. Here's a little note pythagoreans believed the entire world could be expressed with numbers and practice what is considered magic nowadays within an inner circle know as mathemokoi(not sure of the spelling again). Tell me again how a "programmer" like yourself can't see a connection there.

And for the record I myself program webpages for a living and have a healthy relationship which could be the one to marry. Desire and you will achieve.

NekoOni
11-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Ofcourse I'll assume your an Atheist and are too busy wining about the christian majority keeping you down.
Of course if he's from America he has every right to "whinge" about the Christian majority since they are systematically destroying America's education system by attempting to have psuedoscience taught along side science. But then your beliefs are not that dissimilar to that of Christianity's, New Agers are another group that rational thinkers need to watch out for.

Kaktyc
11-30-2006, 05:07 AM
NekoOni, you know whats funny? I keep bringing up their definition of a witch and they keep saying that i'm wrong :D :D

I haven't seen anything that pathetic for a while :kakashi:

Otaku101010
11-30-2006, 06:12 AM
i was looking around this thread and saw this one and i know someone already address this:

It also hasnt been proven that atoms exist.

Things that havent been proven, are not necessarily true. God hasnt been proven, nor will it ever be proven that god existed. How can we prove that jesus existed? How can we prove that oxygen exists?


is just that i wanted to ask Sniper wtf are u retarted of course atoms exist and God he exist too i play cards with him every saturday nigh (hes a sore looser by the way) and God told me that Jesus was actually a politcal leader not a messiah but God did like the guy very much, they apperently also played cards well the equivalent of cards back in Jesus' day. and for the witches they dont exist.

solarenemy
11-30-2006, 06:19 AM
Rational thinkers think you can train your body to project fireballs, throw lightning bolts, and harness nuclear power with in themselves? If this is an example of rational thinkers, I would be horrified to meet an irrational thinker.

Kaktyc
11-30-2006, 07:48 AM
Rational thinkers think you can train your body to project fireballs, throw lightning bolts, and harness nuclear power with in themselves? If this is an example of rational thinkers, I would be horrified to meet an irrational thinker.

Oh rly?
Look in the mirror :)

So tell me how the ideas i presented you are different from you believing in magic? Mine are science based, yours aren't, mine have more possibility of happening. ;)



Yeah i knew that you are not high-school stud when i remebered that you are acquainted with 2 "witches". So you had to be somewhat 27-40 old, its the age when grown people believe in such bullshit and look educated at the same time. High-schoolie would rather laugh at them than believe in that. I just was too lazy to boot my comp again and edit my post :p


Also please don't pull history examples that you are not aquainted with, such as "He was nothing more then a King named Vlad Dracula who went mad and empaled all his enemy on spears and left them for all to see along the countryside."
1. He wasn't Vlad Dracula, he was Vlad Cepesh.
2. He implemented a rule of impaling ANY LAWBREAKERS on spears and putting them alongside the roads. And since there was a lot of lawbreaking in that time, the roads basically had long fences of stupid bastards, that broke the law, sitting on spears. He has never gone mad or crazy. He has dedicated his life to fighting Ottoman Empire so that Dacia (former country that he was ruling) could get independence.
3. He never impaled war prisoners. There was only once a case when Ottoman squad (before the war) has stolen and enslaved several women from a nearby village, and since slavery is lawbreaking...
4. I know all that cause i lived there and studied history, and wasn't pulling sh!t out of google :)
5. Vlad Dracula is a legend and had never existed. If you ever visit his castle, which is located in Romania, every passerby will tell you that.


So if I'm wrong, then which is witch? :)
Frankly i suggest you guys create a HF community called "Geeks and Witches", damn i love that name. :D

sf101
11-30-2006, 08:23 AM
NekoOni, you know whats funny? I keep bringing up their definition of a witch and they keep saying that i'm wrong :D :D Nope superpowers aren't our definition. It's yours.

I haven't seen anything that pathetic for a while :kakashi:Gloating over the internet. Man you need help.

As for a HF-club I don't need it since I actually have REAL friends to talk to. This is cyberspace a haven for those with no lives. If you consider anyone you know over the net a friend then you have a serious problem. Now that I think about it I pose a challenge. There is a board called occult corpus full of magicians, witches, chaotes, ect. I dare you to go over there I try out some of your "logic" there.

Of course if he's from America he has every right to "whinge" about the Christian majority since they are systematically destroying America's education system by attempting to have psuedoscience taught along side science. But then your beliefs are not that dissimilar to that of Christianity's, New Agers are another group that rational thinkers need to watch out for. Quick question is violence and intollerance rational? BTW last time I checked the only psuedo science taught by schools was idiots not wanting to teach evolution. Other than that the school has been a bad as it ever was.

Kaktyc
11-30-2006, 10:49 AM
Nope superpowers aren't our definition. It's yours.
Gloating over the internet. Man you need help.

As for a HF-club I don't need it since I actually have REAL friends to talk to. This is cyberspace a haven for those with no lives. If you consider anyone you know over the net a friend then you have a serious problem. Now that I think about it I pose a challenge. There is a board called occult corpus full of magicians, witches, chaotes, ect. I dare you to go over there I try out some of your "logic" there.
Quick question is violence and intollerance rational? BTW last time I checked the only psuedo science taught by schools was idiots not wanting to teach evolution. Other than that the school has been a bad as it ever was.


1. Show me WHERE i DEFINED witch as HAVING SUPERPOWERS. Quote please. OR STFU.

2. I'm not gloating over internet, I'm having FUN laughing at yours and solarenmy's posts.
3. I'm not considering a friend ANYONE for any reason. Sharing a laugh IS NOT considering anyone a friend.
4. About that board, you know what, cockroaches are strong in numbers, you can quote me :D If i go there and start proving that they are all wrong and have mental problems,
I will simply
a) be ignored
b) get fed the same bullshit as here, as in "you don't believe it so it doesn't exist for you, but you are affected by it and it exists" thats basically paraphrasing YOUR OWN WORDS from previous posts.
c) be banned after a while, or my threads will be ignored completely

5. Knowing all that from above I'm not even going to try anything with that forum. Last i knew "people are free to do what they want until it interferes with freedoms of other people", American Constitution if I'm not mistaken. i don't give a 4-letter word whether magic exists or not, and i suggest that you stop trying to prove to me that it does, because if you succeed, you might deeply regret it later on. Its like giving me admin rights on this forum :) which will never happen of course :D

IF magic/demons/all_that_stuff exists and I get a proof of that. I with my beliefs will become able to utilize that in my own egoistic ways, you don't want to know them. If I'm not able to utilize magic, I'll train to become able. As you all know, the biggest crimes on this planet where committed in the name of humanity and supposedly for the sake of it.

Your problem is that you cannot have an argumented argument. You try to perform personal attacks and I can return them tenfold back to you. For your own sanity and sake and for the sake of this thread keep yourself on track. We aren't discussing me here, we are discussing the way HOW you can prove that magic works to US, nonbelievers, considering the fact that we cannot sense it, by your own words.

Question: CAN anyone of the other people that believe in magic (YOU pick one) sense when YOU use it? I need a clear answer here please. Is it regardless of the distance? A wall perhaps?
Are you able to transfer information through a demon by summoning it consecutevely by different people?
Are you able to create a way to transfer any amount information through the magic? information doesn't have to be a complex message.

If the answers are NO, you totally FAIL. This will prove that your "magic" affects only you and nobody else, i.e. is in fact phsycological.

sf101
11-30-2006, 11:43 AM
1. Show me WHERE i DEFINED witch as HAVING SUPERPOWERS. Quote please. OR STFU. You forget all of the "fireballs""nuclear fission" and "thunderbolt" arguements already. You rationalize that because you have never witnessed magick, that it's imposible for a witch(magick user) to exist. Ofcourse there is always your arguement that magick needs to be supernatural and unexplained. On another note you also claimed you believed you could do anything. Isn't that hypocritical considering it's a claim that you could do magic but are just too lazy to do so yet argue that what I claim is fake.


4. About that board, you know what, cockroaches are strong in numbers, you can quote me :D If i go there and start proving that they are all wrong and have mental problems,
I will simply
a) be ignored
b) get fed the same bullshit as here, as in "you don't believe it so it doesn't exist for you, but you are affected by it and it exists" thats basically paraphrasing YOUR OWN WORDS from previous posts.
c) be banned after a while, or my threads will be ignored completely
5. Knowing all that from above I'm not even going to try anything with that forum. Last i knew "people are free to do what they want until it interferes with freedoms of other people", American Constitution if I'm not mistaken. i don't give a 4-letter word whether magic exists or not, and i suggest that you stop trying to prove to me that it does, because if you succeed, you might deeply regret it later on. Its like giving me admin rights on this forum :) which will never happen of course :D Once again I accept your surrender as you don't have the balls to do anything. You can chatter at me all you want but considering you don't have the confindence to go and debate in the "enemy's" camp you'll always be a coward. Now that I think about your a coward over the internet damn that's weak hell I crash over at the atheist network once and a while and don't have any problems.


IF magic/demons/all_that_stuff exists and I get a proof of that. I with my beliefs will become able to utilize that in my own egoistic ways, you don't want to know them. If I'm not able to utilize magic, I'll train to become able. As you all know, the biggest crimes on this planet where committed in the name of humanity and supposedly for the sake of it.Is it me or does this seem entirely defensive on your part and btw you wouldn't be able to utilize anything since you don't believe in it. You'd rationalize anything as a hallucination or something of the sort or as you put in "drugs".


Your problem is that you cannot have an argumented argument. You try to perform personal attacks and I can return them tenfold back to you. For your own sanity and sake and for the sake of this thread keep yourself on track. We aren't discussing me here, we are discussing the way HOW you can prove that magic works to US, nonbelievers, considering the fact that we cannot sense it, by your own words.Personal attacks? Weren't you the one who wrote an entire paragraph dedicated to slandering me? I explained the theory and inner workings but you just have the same arguement which is "I can't sense it therefore it doesn't exist". You can't sense atoms without high tech equipment therefore it's logical to say you can't sense magick without belief?


CAN anyone of the other people that believe in magic (YOU pick one) sense when YOU use it? I need a clear answer here please. Is it regardless of the distance? A wall perhaps?Someone with an adept level is able to sense the lifeforce of a magician during workings much in the same sense a martial artist can sense someone's ki during a fight. In otherwords yes especially considering that unless your deaf you'd here movements, chantings, ect.


Are you able to transfer information through a demon by summoning it consecutevely by different people?Yes this practice is know by demonolators but only used in cases of emergency.


Are you able to create a way to transfer any amount information through the magic? information doesn't have to be a complex message. Yes in Chaos magic they have a concept called a thoughtform. This is know to everyone else as an imaginary friend(odd huh) wheras it can be created and controled to gather information. Because it feeds on the lifeforce of those around it anyone one in it's vicinity will have bits of energy, memories, feelings, ect. drained which could be read later on by the magician. It's when a thoughform gets strong enough to be self-sustaining that godforms(what all gods are from a chaote standpoint) are born.


If the answers are NO, you totally FAIL. This will prove that your "magic" affects only you and nobody else, i.e. is in fact phsycological.Nope they aren't now what?

Kaktyc
11-30-2006, 12:30 PM
Now we have an experiment. You do some of your "magic" and some other guy tells us whether you done it. We pick the time, and the other guy tells us when this happens. Sounds fair? And of course you don't contact except through the "magic". Its not hard you know.

or you "summon" a demon and ask him to transfer some of the information to the other guy, and we take time to make sure you never contact each other until the other guy tells us your words.

or you "create a thoughtform" and send it to that guy. Does that sound hard?

hey, just know, metal detector finds any radio transmitting devices real easy and fast.

Just so you know why "magic" is not recognized by scientists 101% of these experiments fail.



P.S. where's da quote? take your time and look for one, though i doubt even your "magic" will help you find something that does not exist.

"Isn't that hypocritical considering it's a claim that you could do magic but are just too lazy to do so yet argue that what I claim is fake." - Everything I said is theoretically possible. I'm just straining the chances of that possibility by a lot :) magic is theoretically IMpossible, feel the difference?

Ok i can use my force of will to move objects. Is this true or false? Think of it, since the force of will is what moves my hands and legs, i do use it every day to move myself, my backpack and other stuff. its not direct implementation of the force of will, but the first statement sounds like I am stating that I posess a supernatural power which is a lie.
You are playing with words like that, behave like a grown up please if you are one.

"Once again I accept your surrender as you don't have the balls to do anything." balls? Now you need balls to feed people bullshit? Geez people has become real cowards.
Also speaking of rationality. Talking to a whole board of idiots, trying to talk sense into them is simply NOT RATIONAL, NOT WORTH MY TIME. Sorry you fail again.
You can surrender me as many times as you want, i have lots more :)

"Is it me or does this seem entirely defensive on your part and btw you wouldn't be able to utilize anything since you don't believe in it. You'd rationalize anything as a hallucination or something of the sort or as you put in "drugs"." - I rely on my perception 100% and i don't make hallucination excuses. I don't do drugs either, well unless your "ritual" involves them, then you're out :D

"Personal attacks? Weren't you the one who wrote an entire paragraph dedicated to slandering me? I explained the theory and inner workings but you just have the same arguement which is "I can't sense it therefore it doesn't exist". You can't sense atoms without high tech equipment therefore it's logical to say you can't sense magick without belief?" that was a response to solar, just for fun, checking if I was right. BTW I can sense atoms, now what? belief is NOT equipment. Equipment ENHANCES something you already have. Belief doesn't do anything except making you believe.


Some more on rationality. When studying molecules we had to explain the fact that they consisted of something, the reason WHY we need atom theory. You are building a theory around the air, nobody needs it except people like you. SCAM in other words. Theory that is NOT backed up by anything, is useless. Atoms are backed up by special microscopes, and magic is backed up by belief? What about sects that make their members commint mass suicides, sectants believe too you know. Are they right in killing themselves? MY BELIEF SAYS NO. Why are you stating that you are right? My belief says that I AM. My belief says that there's NO GOD, NO DEMONS, NO ANGELS, AND NO MAGIC. How come your belief is supposedly affects me if to sense magic i got to believe in it? Theres no freaking way that happens. See thats where all fanatics like you end up, you push your bullshit over people not even taking their arguments into account. Thats where all scam sects start that get people's money and all their belongings and then have them commit suicides for their Ctulhu bullshit. My belief is ONLY MINE, don't touch it with your dirty hands, you got to prove yourself before i believe in it, thats THE ONLY way it works. :) Besides if there are no physical results of magic, there is no point in using it, is there. Its not rational ;)

meanwhile I'll be studying, see your response in couple(4-6) of hours.

BTW i never stated that i can use magic. Please find a quote. All i said is that i can do anything. If it includes magic, for YOU, it does not include it for me, for I think it DOES NOT exist. IF proven otherwise i'll know that i am able to perform it as well.

sf101
11-30-2006, 11:51 PM
Sheesh Kakyc you post is a wreck. Use some quotes or some type of organization for visnu's sake. Let's see what I can salvage.

1. If you wish an experiment give me an adress of sort if you dare. A name, town, something to locate you. BTW traveling across country cost money so either you pay or live close by. You'd best hope it's close as I'm not paying a cent.

2. As for quote to magic being superpowers which is the same thing as a witch is defined as a magick user

Gosh, you are saying "There's nothing supernatural about it at all, we just lack an explanation." Explanation of WHAT? What are you talkin about? magic? Where is it? In your brain? Oh rly? Show it to me. Can you turn water into wine? No? Then stfu and don't try to force your point of view over me. Note the end which says "not to force your point of view over me" by that standard your beliefs in magic and witches are of superpowers. If turning water into wine isn't a superpower then I don't know what is since transmutation of liquids would need an expert chemist along with some high powered machinery. So long as you ignore the law of "cannot go against nature" your arguments will always be contrary to what my definition of a witch is.

3. Say force of will alone if you don't want to lie about telekinetic abilities. Believe it or not such mental abilities are what are obtained through tantra but ofcourse I've enver practiced therefore I have nothing else to say unless you'd like to know what I've read.

4. Since when does belief not enhance humans? It's illogical just like emotions but ofcourse beliefs can cause humans to feel emotions not understood by other. Theoreticly these can cause supernatural effects. I recall awhile back about a mother lifting a car to try and save her child. Maybe if she didn't believe she was a mother she wouldn't have been able to. Maybe emotions are the keys to magick hell they're used quite often. That or adrenaline and various other hormones from organs of the edocrine system.

5.Rational concepts don't work with irrational people. Likewise I'll say something rational and propose to agree to disagree. Will do the rational thing or continue to contend that you are correct? As for your arguments you state the same thing over and over that it's completely illogical yet you forget how illogical and disorderly this world is. If something that is illogical causes a logical effect is it illogical? Nope it just means we've yet to understand the logic behind it.

P.S. Magick can obtain physical results when it comes to the body, soul, & spirit. Obtaining a skill, changing something on the body, raising cognitive abilities(close to those psychic abilities but to a realistic extent), changing a personality trait, ect. This type is rather basic.

Something else I'd like to mention is that Franz Bardon a well know hermetic master had two definintion for the world. Franz Bardon defines all Universal Manifestation through two distinctions, Mysticism & Magick. Mysticism is the Non-Dualistic Seat of Consciousness, the Central Unchanging Axis of Being of the Universe. Magick, according to Bardon, is EVERYTING ELSE, mathematics, astronomy, physics, metaphysics, art, literature, mythology, politics, and on and on! It is the Art, Science and Mastery of the Dualistic Manifestation of the Mind Field. Mastery of the Mind leads to Mastery of the Mind Field, to Mastery of the Self, to the Mystical Seat of Non-Dualistic Consciousness.Just a penny for you thoughts.

Kaktyc
12-01-2006, 12:21 AM
Sheesh Kakyc you post is a wreck. Use some quotes or some type of organization for visnu's sake. Let's see what I can salvage.

1. If you wish an experiment give me an adress of sort if you dare. A name, town, something to locate you. BTW traveling across country cost money so either you pay or live close by. You'd best hope it's close as I'm not paying a cent.

2. As for quote to magic being superpowers which is the same thing as a witch is defined as a magick user
Note the end which says "not to force your point of view over me" by that standard your beliefs in magic and witches are of superpowers. If turning water into wine isn't a superpower then I don't know what is since transmutation of liquids would need an expert chemist along with some high powered machinery. So long as you ignore the law of "cannot go against nature" your arguments will always be contrary to what my definition of a witch is.

3. Say force of will alone if you don't want to lie about telekinetic abilities. Believe it or not such mental abilities are what are obtained through tantra but ofcourse I've enver practiced therefore I have nothing else to say unless you'd like to know what I've read.

4. Since when does belief not enhance humans? It's illogical just like emotions but ofcourse beliefs can cause humans to feel emotions not understood by other. Theoreticly these can cause supernatural effects. I recall awhile back about a mother lifting a car to try and save her child. Maybe if she didn't believe she was a mother she wouldn't have been able to. Maybe emotions are the keys to magick hell they're used quite often. That or adrenaline and various other hormones from organs of the edocrine system.

5.Rational concepts don't work with irrational people. Likewise I'll say something rational and propose to agree to disagree. Will do the rational thing or continue to contend that you are correct? As for your arguments you state the same thing over and over that it's completely illogical yet you forget how illogical and disorderly this world is. If something that is illogical causes a logical effect is it illogical? Nope it just means we've yet to understand the logic behind it.

P.S. Magick can obtain physical results when it comes to the body, soul, & spirit. Obtaining a skill, changing something on the body, raising cognitive abilities(close to those psychic abilities but to a realistic extent), changing a personality trait, ect. This type is rather basic.

Something else I'd like to mention is that Franz Bardon a well know hermetic master had two definintion for the world. Franz Bardon defines all Universal Manifestation through two distinctions, Mysticism & Magick. Mysticism is the Non-Dualistic Seat of Consciousness, the Central Unchanging Axis of Being of the Universe. Magick, according to Bardon, is EVERYTING ELSE, mathematics, astronomy, physics, metaphysics, art, literature, mythology, politics, and on and on! It is the Art, Science and Mastery of the Dualistic Manifestation of the Mind Field. Mastery of the Mind leads to Mastery of the Mind Field, to Mastery of the Self, to the Mystical Seat of Non-Dualistic Consciousness.Just a penny for you thoughts.

I'm too lazy to cut your post into pieces for quotes.

1. I dare - Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Will give more detailed if we actually agree on this thing. Hope you don't live in Europe cause I'm not paying for that either. :)

2. lots of stuff can go along nature i just pulled wine as the most obvious act of "magic". Hey you see, by your own words you are saying that demons exist. So if i assume that, then I can use all the bible as arguments against you.

3. w/e

4. Since when? Since never belief enhanced humans. You pull a mother example, aright. Same story - guy rises a concrete block of several tons in order to save himself. Or guy tears apart a parachute bag that is behind him (its made of very tough material, you know) when his chute doesn't open. Hey no conscious thinking is involved, only fear of death and several milliliters of adrenaline that would normally kill a human on the spot, only now its used up on the spot.

5. If magic is irrational or you are, then don't pull rationality into this aright? "you forget how illogical and disorderly this world is." Since when is it so? I don't see any lack of logic or order. All the mess that is present was created by us humans. World has nothing to do with this.

6. You and Franz Bardon sound just like my granpa. I'm not reading that.

What i don't get is the following. You state that magic is NOT a cognitive process, however you say that in order to achieve any act of magic you have to act cognitively through your sub-conscience. Now if you done any meditation at all, you know that theres nothing in there except dark void. Okay, you place some thought in there, that is supposed to take its own form in the physical world by your power of belief times gnosis which in fact is how less conscious you are at a given moment. Is it me or theres a contradiction in that statement?

P.S. I might be even too lazy to conduct the experiment, but if you live close I'd like to observe one(ritual) if possible. Just for interest. :)

CrisisAngel
12-01-2006, 05:27 AM
Yes i believe witches do exist and i know it does, real ones.

Why? I am one. Serious.

kingalex
12-01-2006, 09:07 AM
oh nice, what kind of things you do?

sf101
12-01-2006, 11:04 AM
1. Nope that's way to far, I live in Maryland, US and somebody over the internet isn't worth that.

2. Bible miracles are NOT magick. Once again your defining magick as superpowers. The bible can't be used as an arguement as I mentioned above you can't turn water into wine with a flick of the wrist. Likewise you can't split a sea while just raising your hands and saying Shem Hamephorash(What the jew believed moseus said when he did it). If you remember the equation that(if possible) would have very low odds of happening. I'm no magus but likewise your request are insane. Another note anything in the new testament refering to Jesus is currently up to speculation since through scientific evidence it's been proven none of the gospels were writen in his lifetime with the oldest being mark which they attribute to about 100 AD. It's science therefore you must obey.

3. Eh who cares.

4. Tell it to a Chaote. They believe "Nothing is true, Everything is permited". If you haven't looked it up yet then I suggest you do since belief is a primary weapon of a Chaote. An ability they use called paradigm shifting that allows them to constantly change what they believe at any given moment. Hence if they believed they loved someone or that their lives are in danger (even though neither are true) because they believe it's becomes a reality. A belief carries significance with it which alters human perception and ability. I'm not a chaote however therefore I wouldn't be able to fully explain it properly.

5. Congratuation you are now the irrational one and odviously in this for a pointless arguement. Rational people don't keep an arguement going especially when they've said before that.

The chance is absolutely close to zero, of me proving to you through such thing as internet that your world perception is wrong. I mean some people don't accept it, even when it punches them in the face (fanatics), so there is simply nothing to talk about in there. You are irrational as you keep going on in an arguement you can't win. You just as if not more irrational than me. Keep going anyway I like the post count I'm getting.

6. Someone who cannot see or doesn't want to will never be able too(Old pythagorean proverb).

7. As for magick it isn't that simple. Most magick follows hermetic principles and unfortunatly that would take 4 pages to explain(took bardon 6) and since your not into reading it'd be pointless for me to do so.[/QUOTE]

Kaktyc
12-01-2006, 01:35 PM
1. Yeah thats pretty far away. Now i know what state to nuke first, if i get access to nuclear silos. No magic - less unknown variables ;)

2. I get it. You can stop repeating yourself. :)

3. Meh.

4. Hey i rely on my belief too, i just don't shove it into every hole i find.

5. i like my post count too, you know ;)

6. There's also another proverb that says "the more you know, the more you know you don't know" So when you know everything, you know that you don't know anything.

7. We could really wrap up on this point, but hey #5 ;) lets argue about something else that relates to magic. You pick one as you are more knowledgeable in that are. :p

sf101
12-01-2006, 05:46 PM
Eh fine with me I'm close to 800.

Let's talk about something that has been common in all types of magic, the elements. No matter the location the five elements which are energy, fire, water, air, & earth are for some odd reason universal(exception in chinese alchemy which adds metal for some reason). This one actually has a physical paralle to it which is the four forms of matter(solid, liquid, gas, plasma). There's an apparent belief that these elements make up the body, soul, and matter itself. The spirit is made out of pure energy or ether. There's abit more into this but your thoughts on the matter?

Kaktyc
12-02-2006, 07:51 PM
ether theory was disproved loooong ago. Unless of course your "ether" is not physical at all -_-'
let me tell you something. Any living system works on the differences of concentrations. Assuming that spirit is made of energy, errm you get it, right?

SpHero
12-02-2006, 09:28 PM
Yes, because it's better than none.

sf101
12-03-2006, 07:17 AM
ether theory was disproved loooong ago. Unless of course your "ether" is not physical at all -_-'Never heard of an ether theory and if it were to be put into a physical concept it'd be what the dense singularity of the big bang which oddly enough paralles what has been know since B.C.E. Fire is the active expanding principle while water is the passive condensing principle. Air is the force which balances fire and water while earth is what holds them all together. Oddly enough air and earth aren't seen as real elements.
Translation into scientific terms: Fire and Water represent energy quantities and how it effects matter, Air is how energy disperses and equates itself when left in a controled environment, Earth is the co-existence of energy & matter to create a working natural system.
Ether is what is believed to have spawned all of the elements. A purity if you will. It's physical counterpart could only be concieved as the singularity of the big bang.


let me tell you something. Any living system works on the differences of concentrations. Assuming that spirit is made of energy, errm you get it, right? Ether is seen as non-existent actually. What things were before existence came into being. Potential would be the word. Oddly enough some religions call this fifth energy god. The description given is spaceless, timeless, & incomprehensible yet much like earth keeps the everything in equilibrium. Yeah doesn't make much sense does it?

It should be mentioned that none of the elements are seen as physical elements of the material plane though as I've mentioned physical counterparts appear in the realm of science.

Kaktyc
12-03-2006, 07:47 PM
Ether theory states that empty space as we know it now is actually filled with ether (not empty). Was later disproved by vacuum theory, the one that is used today.

Well, if we take earth as solid, water as liquid, air as gas, and fire as plasma, we will have all 4 possible (known) matter states. The analogy seems ok.

What bugs me is the following. Suppose spiritual energy is a whole different world. If it is so, i don't see any possible way for energy based entities/beings to connect to our world, there is no real reason for that. Just as well there is no way this knowledge would come to us. I mean, to acquire magic you have to believe in it. Then how the first person got it? Nobody would know that it exists, since nobody believes in it from the beginning.

solarenemy
12-03-2006, 08:06 PM
The whole point is that everyone believed in magic in the beginning. Magic was the explanation for all the things unexplained in the beginning. Some just had different names for it, but it was all magic. However over time certain individuals noticed things happening in nature all the time and decided these where natural and not magic these where our future scientist. So over time the number that believed in magic decreased. But there are some that remain that realized you can unfluence the natural world through your own will. It is an almost unnoticed influence but if done enough the influence becomes greater. Its like a ripple or wave effect. Everything that is composed of solid, liquid, gas, or plasma oscillates or resonates at a given frequency. All things in the universe has a resonant frequency and its anergy and or amplitude is at a set level unless acted upon by another force. Knowing this, those who practice magic can exert their will onto that frequency and cause the amplitude of a certain wave to become stronger.

Take for example if you tap a pool of water. The waves will radiate out over the pool. If you tap again, you will most likely distrubt the waves and cause chaos in the pool. However if you time the tap just right you will add energy to the wave and make it stronger. Each properly timed tap will make the passing wave stronger each time.

Magic works on the same principle. By influencing the waves in the environment they can effect change for their own benefit. Its just a matter of knowing what waves to tap and how much to tap to exert the change they wish to accomplish.

Its also my belief that the vacuum theory is wrong as well. The empty space is not simply void and a vacuum. There is dark matter and anti-matter. Both of which could be called the mysterious ether if you will.

NekoOni
12-03-2006, 09:09 PM
Ether theory states that empty space as we know it now is actually filled with ether (not empty). Was later disproved by vacuum theory, the one that is used today.
The Luminiferous Ether theory was disproved by the Michelson-Morley experiment wasn't it. The one which proved that light doesn't require a medium to move in, and in fact relative to the viewer all light rays move the same speed.


There is dark matter and anti-matter. Both of which could be called the mysterious ether if you will.
Anti-matter = the mysterious ether? Uh wrong. Anti-matter is nothing mysterious it's normal matter. It just happens to have a few of it's quantum numbers around the other way which means it annihilates when it hits regular matter.

Dark matter is in many ways still a theory, and it exists to try to determine if the universe contains enough matter to prevent eternal expansion. Neutrinos could be considered a form of dark matter (they barely interact with regular matter and they may well constitute a large proportion of the universe). Once again nothing spectacular, in fact most likely the only real influence dark matter would have on our universe in gravitational.

Vacuum theory? Solarenemy do have any idea what this actually is? Vacuum theory in case you missed this one, says that indeed space is NOT a void it contains countless particles continuously appearing and then annihilating (particles and anti-particles actually). This "pair production" happens so quickly that due to uncertainty principle conservation of mass is not violated. It's this vacuum theory which leads to the conclusion that black holes actually radiate energy. So no space is not a void, it contains pair production and most likely dark matter (it certainly contains an insane amount of neutrinos). Anti-matter however, no that stuff it not common (outside of the miniscule amounts in vacuum theory), we'd see the annihilation signature from light-years away.

As for everyone believing in magic in the beginning. There's a theory called "God of the gaps" though it applies to superstitions as well. Bascially whatever is unexplained people will insert gods/fairies whatever into. As science illuminates the world these superstitions are pushed into the gaps in scientific knowledge. Of course in any given generation there will always be people, who despite the general level of out culture's scientific knowledge, manage to lag behind this knowledge level. Typically the religious and less educated (in fact the two often go hand-in-hand as studies have shown) are more prone to these beliefs.

Kaktyc
12-03-2006, 09:26 PM
Everything that is composed of solid, liquid, gas, or plasma oscillates or resonates at a given frequency. All things in the universe has a resonant frequency and its energy and or amplitude is at a set level unless acted upon by another force.
This does not happen, please do not try to tie science into this, especially if you are not very knowledgeable in science.
Let me explain why. Assume we have a homogeneous environment, ex: some gas. In order to create a wave we need a source of that, so another, different, environment has to contact it. Lets assume we have a stationary source of waves, in the middle of a sphere. so waves are traveling to the edges and there we have diffraction of waves, because we have the end of one environment and start of another. ONLY and only in that case resonance is possible. Resonance is when those waves, that actually travel back to the source, amplify the waves that travel from the source. So we have an ever increasing amplitude until the resonance somehow stops.


Its also my belief that the vacuum theory is wrong as well. The empty space is not simply void and a vacuum. There is dark matter and anti-matter. Both of which could be called the mysterious ether if you will.
FYI its never been stated anywhere that they fill in the never ending space of our Universe. Its like we don't know what properties they have, but we know what they don't have. Theres lots remaining and magic is not there, ether is not there as well. And if you try to oppose me on this, I'll shove you my fireball/nuclear theory into your face again, because it stretches the limits allowed just as your "magic" theory does.

And again on the frequency. When you get sound to do anything more than sounding and creating stupid destructive resonance in things (no infra sound please, or ultra), give Nobel Committee a call, okay? They will give you some prize and couple mils of bux. Because what you described is supposedly doing some cognitive work, being a simple non-thinking wave of some sort.


2 NekoOni huh, you remind me of my argument with teacher about that.
He's Turkish so he believes in Allah and all that stuff, so i went and drew a line called it all the knowledge in the world, drew a smaller line to cross it and said one part was what we know, and the other part was what we cannot explain and call magic/miracles/etc, so I said when we know everything the god fails to exist in our beliefs (but, knowing that Universe is infinite, we will never know everything, right ;) so god theory will never cease to exist). He was very stressed by my statement :) but he wasn't as stubborn and didn't argue.

solarenemy
12-03-2006, 10:08 PM
Well you fail at science. Sound is not the only thing composed of waves. ALL energy is composed of waves. The electromagnetic spectrum is nothing more then energy ranging from the smallest frequency which is below sound to the highest which is microwaves and beyond. All things that have energy must resonate. This is why you cant obtain absolute zero. You must remove all energy and stop all motion or vibration or resonance. Anything that oscillates or vibrates at a set frequency is said to resonate. You dont have to have a return wave to have a wavelength and frequency such as energy. It is this wave that all energy radiates that magic can influence through will power.

A person has a frequency called his cercadien rythym. Maybe spelled different but its called that. Its the biological clock that our bodies operate on. Within our bodies subsystems that clock is multiplied or divided to achieve various cycles our body needs. Your normal sleep cycle is based on this.

Those who practice magic also believe fortune good and bad, love and all sorts of things are based on various frequencies and points whithin this cycle. They believe if you can influence a particualr frequency or point you can then influence luck, love, health, and even other things.

The idea of energy was just to get you to thinking in terms of frequency and waveforms that all things radiate and resonate at. Even simple atoms have a set frequency and resonate frequency depending on the element. And can be excited through external means.

Such as argon atoms in an argon ion laser. They can be excited by an electric field to a higher frequency. When they are allowed to go back to their ground state they release a photon which is what makes the laser light. The point is that the frequency can be changed in a some way. This is true of all wave forms and frequencies.

This is the bases of magic. To cause change of natural occurences through the subtle influence of willpower. This change may not happen right away since frequencies of lower wavelength require more time to change. However with patience and perseverence and knowing what change you want, it can be done. Now since this has become the most deviating thread on HF history, I am leaving it at this.

I have said more about the workings of magic then I should have. But I felt it was necessary to explain what we call witches is not what the books and fairy tales call them. The ones in the books do not exist. I will agree with that. The ones who influence change as I have described do exist however. I have met them and practiced with them and I have actually seen this process work for myself and other members of the coven. I can say with every once of my being that magic exist and works and I know people who use it and call themselves witches. It may not be able to be explained now, but it is real and it does work.

StarWarsGalaxies
12-03-2006, 10:24 PM
lol, all this speak of waves in the last posts's first few paragraphs makes me think of XenoSaga III. You get to a point where everything has to do w/ waves, good, evil, the characters, the story line, and soon, you kinda get lost and are like... wait, whut? I'm lost.

NekoOni
12-03-2006, 10:56 PM
Well you fail at science. Sound is not the only thing composed of waves. ALL energy is composed of waves. The electromagnetic spectrum is nothing more then energy ranging from the smallest frequency which is below sound to the highest which is microwaves and beyond. All things that have energy must resonate. This is why you cant obtain absolute zero. You must remove all energy and stop all motion or vibration or resonance. Anything that oscillates or vibrates at a set frequency is said to resonate. You dont have to have a return wave to have a wavelength and frequency such as energy. It is this wave that all energy radiates that magic can influence through will power.
All energy is not composed of waves. For example potential energy is not composed of waves. It is you who have failed at science, as I proved last time we had a science discussion. Things with temperatures above absolute zero do NOT resonate. They have thermal kinetic energy, which is actually not at all resonant and is in fact random.

Well in any case science works far more effectively than magic. After all science is what has dragged humanity out of the dark ages when people who were thought to be witches (let alone proclaimed to be one) were burnt alive. So please don't attempt to use science to rationalise your bizzare beliefs. It's sadder than watching creationists attempt to find scientific evidence to back up Genesis. You should give up before you embarass yourself further.

ungas1232004
12-04-2006, 04:44 AM
"close minded people tend to disprove facts that is proven by others..."
who ever owns that quote i credid it to him/her

as for me witches exist but far from most books (not all i guess) i have witness witchcraft before me and was dumbfounded. as i have posted here it before and is practiced in rural place in our country.

btw what is the difference from divination and fortune telling from magics?
i have a friend that has an 80% accuracy of predicting small things by using tarrot cards and such.

solarenemy
12-04-2006, 06:15 AM
Well my last comment on this thread is simple. Look at the poll results and see for your self. There are faree more here on HF that believe in witches then do not. Based on that you are accussing the majority of Hong Fireians of being throwbacks to the dark ages and or idiots. Just remember to never underestimate the power of idiots and stupid people in large numbers.

NekoOni
12-04-2006, 12:07 PM
Well my last comment on this thread is simple. Look at the poll results and see for your self. There are faree more here on HF that believe in witches then do not. Based on that you are accussing the majority of Hong Fireians of being throwbacks to the dark ages and or idiots. Just remember to never underestimate the power of idiots and stupid people in large numbers.
Appeal to popularity fallacy. BTW I never underestimate the power of idiots and stupid people in large numbers. Honestly I had higher hopes for the members of this board, oh well.

sf101
12-04-2006, 07:39 PM
Well isn't this nice. Let's see

Solarenemy:You need to bone up abit as your not right on a couple of things. The vibration you speak of comes from Hermetic though which is the oldest known form of magical thought. Allow me to explain the vibrations are everywhere yes and science does support this unless we see otherwise. The smallest of all matter(known anyway) are atoms which we believe are composed of electrons, neutrons, & protons(I'm simplifying this I know about quarks and neutrinos) wheras an electron orbits neutrons & protons. The movement of the electron is creates a vibration which pulsates from everything. Anything that moves even a tiny bit creates a vibration of sort no matter how small which is the basis of the vibrational principle. Does all energy move? I'll let you look into that yourself.

BTW the influence through vibration is also hemetic belief but you failed to mention it in full. It goes that since most if not everything works through a vibration of sort creating these in the mental plane then letting them out into the physical world to cause change or even miracles such as pyrokenesis or bringing the dead back to life through placing principles of nature and science agianst each other. If your going to use the hermetic arguement then you'd best know entirely what your talking about. If anyone ask about hermetism I'll refer them to the quote of Franz Bardon in one of my earlier post.

Kaktyc:Looking over Vacuum theory I see a paralle toward tantra which states that void mediation is the best way to raise Kundalini(if you don't know don't worry). Think about that emptying the mind and keeping it blank is a way to raise kundalini which by tantra is a potential energy which as it rises awakens energy within the body as it achieves "higher forms of consciousness". This paralles so greatly as they believe the humans are in itself a tiny universes or microcosm whearas the universe we see is the macrocosm.
It's full of the religious mumble jumbo such as gods and the like but stripped down apparently void(empty) in the mind(microcosm) awakens energy(kundalini) which rises through lotuses(energy centers which exist in the sub-conscious) to merge with the universe(macrocosm which is not conscious or (My opinon)the subconscious) to acheive "Liberation"(enlightenment). Things know as siddis are said to appear during kundalini rises are special abilities which uses this potential energy that gives "supernatural abilities" which should be ignored. I have no experence in this field but am just repeating what I've read.

There's alot more into that but that'd take toooooooo look to type. I'll only mention that the phenomenon known as a kundalini rising scientificly exist and is explained(sort of) and an empty mind is a metaphorical vacuum.

NekoOni: Do you believe in Disney magic? How about Ghibi or Pixar magic?:D

xanderman
12-04-2006, 07:54 PM
omg this tread is still going.

I just wanted to add, one if the dumbest defences of ppl that believe in magic ghost and hocus pocus is:

If you dont open you mind to it being able to happend then youll never be able to do/see/hear/experience it for your self.

simple example: in the early days of flight there were ppl who had very very closed minds about anyone being able to fly in a machine like that.
ppl that were 100% sure it could never happen.
THEN they saw the plane take of and fly around their heads.

Even though they had never exepted it of told and closed their minds of it ever being able to happen the proof fly right around their heads.

Now there are things you can see in the wrong light and misinterped but a plane flying hunders of meteres above ground or riding on a plane is PROOF even if they didnt have their minds open to it.

OWNED!

solarenemy
12-04-2006, 08:30 PM
So your saying that all these people that say witches don't exist would see they actually indeed EXIST if they would open their minds and not be so closed minded about them NOT existing..

Kaktyc
12-05-2006, 08:29 AM
Now sf101, don't tell me you actually done some magic. :)
Whatever it was, I wasn't affected but large numbers of people in my city seem to be :P
If you tell me what it was i might agree with you on the magic theory.

sf101
12-05-2006, 09:26 AM
Now sf101, don't tell me you actually done some magic. :)
Whatever it was, I wasn't affected but large numbers of people in my city seem to be :P
If you tell me what it was i might agree with you on the magic theory.
Wasn't me, I've been too busy fencing. What happened anyway?

Kaktyc
12-05-2006, 10:16 AM
Seems like everyone in Edmonton was having nightmares this night 8)
Except me :)
On the other thought i had some action in my dreams. But I wouldn't call something that weak a nightmare ;)

iMySt
12-05-2006, 10:31 PM
Witches most definately exist, but just in the sense of their religion, Wicca. Magic is bogus. The universe follows its laws and no combination of toad tongues and wart juice can alter them.

Kaktyc
12-06-2006, 08:13 PM
Whoa :eek:, i cannot simply let this thread die like that :grin:

Anyways, whats the deal with you witch believers believing in them? I mean how come you are so stubborn in trying to prove that magic/witchcraft exists. I can understand sf101 - he thinks that he witnessed it, but others? :confused:

MegaMick
12-11-2006, 07:51 AM
Well some people here said they were witches themselves. Too bad they didn't post anything else. I'm really curious as to know what have they been doing on that matter.

Angrond
12-11-2006, 07:56 AM
Would be cool though if they exist o.O

Suzuran
12-11-2006, 08:20 AM
I don't believe until I see them :x