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  • [Other] The 3D Modelling Discussion Thread

    Hello,

    I decided to open an thread where we can talk about 3D modelling and other stuff, which have to do with modelling, like the UV Map, weighting, etc.
    In some or many mod discussions from different games, people asked the same questions like, how to remodel something, which program(s) I have to use, what is skinning? Etc.
    We can also make our own tutorials and add some links.
    I think that we also talk about the four most used 3D modelling programs.
    The programs are: Metasequoia, 3Ds Max, Maya and Blender.
    For beginners, I recommend Metasequoia and you need only the shareware.
    It is very good for beginners, for basic stuff and many japanese modder use it too. But this program don't support the work with bones.
    Maya and 3Ds Max (they are from the same company Autodesk) are the non plus ultra, with them you can do anything. But they are also complicated to handle, cause they have so many options and sub options, that you need really much practice.
    About Blender, unfortunately I don't have not much informations. I only know that it is a freeware, where you can make also much 3D stuff with it and that also many people use it.
    Okay let use share our knowledge.
    Last edited by Inquisitor; 04-17-2014, 08:23 AM.

  • #31
    Introduction
    This tutorial is created to help to understand how morphs work, but it is intended for experienced modders. Tools needed to reproduce the examples are SB3UGS, Maya and Digital Mate. It is possible to mod morphs using Metasequoia instead of Maya.

    In Illusion games you see two types of animation. Skeletal bone animation which is used for character's walking or making love animations. Items can also be animated like that, e.g. the clothes characters wear follow the animation of the character. The second type of animation is vertex morphing which allows only linear movement of vertices. The advantage is precise control for each vertex. This tutorial will be on the latter type which is used for facial expressions. Twinkling eyes, lip synchronization or even when elves turn up or down their ears are examples for it. Very rarely these two animation types are combined. This combined type uses "Keys" like in skeletal bone animation to store a value for a certain point in time, but instead of a bone's transformation matrix those keys hold a morph's strength.


    Morphs in DM
    Digital Mate - the poser of SM2 - lets you choose the facial expressions in the middle column of the scene settings. All animations in "Facial Expressions (Eyes)" and "Face (Mouth)" are implemented as morphs. The slider controls the morph strength of the selected animations.

    A selected expression does not select one animation - it actually selects two! The morph sliders work from a "Closed" animation keyframe to an "Open" animation keyframe. In Maya you can animate those alone, but the game always shows both at once - each to some degree. So we would have to edit these two extremes if we would like to create a completely new expression. Illusion optimized that and combined equal looking expression states.

    The following table lists all morphs for the head which target the mouth and is named kao_kuti (kao = face, kuti => kuchi = mouth).
    Spoiler

    Normal A01_O_kao0 A01_O_kao09ku Normal 2 closed, Tongue 1 closed
    Normal 2 A01_O_kao0 A01_O_kao30ku Normal closed, Tongue 1 closed
    Smile 1 A01_O_kao10ku A01_O_kao19ku Smile 2 closed, Tongue 3 opened
    Smile 2 A01_O_kao10ku A01_O_kao20ku Smile 1 closed
    Smile 3 A01_O_kao50ku A01_O_kao59ku
    Open Smile A01_O_kao70ku A01_O_kao79ku
    Open Smile 2 A01_O_kao60ku A01_O_kao109ku Open 1 closed, Tongue 2 opened
    Open O A01_O_kao90ku A01_O_kao99ku
    Open O 2 A01_O_kao69ku A01_O_kao119ku Open 1 opened
    Sad 1 A01_O_kao40ku A01_O_kao49ku Tongue 4 opened
    Open Sad A01_O_kao80ku A01_O_kao89ku
    Open Sad 2 A01_O_kao120ku A01_O_kao129ku
    Open 1 A01_O_kao60ku A01_O_kao69ku Open Smile 2 closed, Tongue 2 opened, Open O 2 closed
    Open Ahaa A01_O_kao140ku A01_O_kao149ku
    Close 1 A01_O_kao190ku A01_O_kao199ku
    Teeth 1 A01_O_kao150ku A01_O_kao159ku
    Teeth 2 A01_O_kao160ku A01_O_kao169ku
    Close 2 A01_O_kao170ku A01_O_kao179ku
    Open 2 A01_O_kao180ku A01_O_kao189ku
    Tongue 1 A01_O_kao0 A01_O_kao200ku Normal opened, Normal 2 opened
    Tongue 2 A01_O_kao210ku A01_O_kao60ku Open Smile 2 closed, Open 1 closed
    Tongue 3 A01_O_kao220ku A01_O_kao19ku Smile 1 opened
    Tongue 4 A01_O_kao230ku A01_O_kao49ku Sad 1 opened
    Tongue 5 A01_O_kao130ku A01_O_kao139ku
    The same numbers are used for haS, haU (both rows of teeth), hoho (blushing), kuti_siruF and kuti_siruU (outer and inner covering of the teeth) and kao_siru00 (stains of lower left side of the mouth).

    Let's have a look and use the morph preview in SB3UGS. Open qa_00_00_00.pp, A01_10_00.xx and A01_10_00.xa. Select mesh A01_O_kao, expand morph clip kao_kuti. What happens if you select "Smile 3" in the poser? See the list above and select 050 : A01_O_kao50ku and click the Start button. Then the same for 059 : A01_O_kao59ku and the End button. The slider in SB3UGS and in the poser should produce the same result. The Reference IDs at the beginning are searched by the poser to learn which keyframe must be taken. The order of the "Keyframe Reference" in the morph clip doesn't matter. They build pairs just for human readability.

    Another optimization Illusion made is that they used the same morph keyframes in different clips. E.g. you'll find A01_O_kao0 additionally in kao_me (me = eyes). To let these animations work independently each morph clip has a mask. This mask defines which vertex belongs to a morph clip. SB3UGS exports these vertices with a blue vertex colour.
    [ATTACH]232883[/ATTACH]
    The import of keyframes in SB3UGS also uses this mask and considers only the blue marked vertices. But it takes the mask from the game and not from the imported file! Therefore, dont try to change the mask by giving additional vertices a blue vertex colour. The current version of SB3UGS (and SB3U) has no such feature. The mask is never touched.

    Select either the clip kao_kuti or one of it's keyframe references to export all referenced keyframes of the clip. The exported keyframes will be masked in the manner explained above. Fbx (one BS) let's you find your keyframes in Maya easier. Now export two further clips haS and haU.


    Morphs in Maya
    Just drop all three exports into the main window and see how morphs look as Maya's blend shapes. The control window can be found in Window \ Animation Editors \ Blend Shape. Also switch on the Attribute Editor (Ctrl-A). Then use the Select button in one of your blend shapes. In the Attribute Editor search for A01_O_{mesh name}109ku and pull the slider to the maximum. Do that for all three meshes. If you have XRay on you can see all meshes morphed at once.
    [ATTACH]232884[/ATTACH]
    Note the number at the end of the channels! Dont use those channels as they are duplicates of the first. Names of channels must be unique and Maya renumbers them automatically. The only exception to this is when the original keyframe in the game ends with a digit, e.i. A01_O_kao0.

    In this tutorial I show how to create a biting lip animation. A01_O_kao0 is very close to my goal. Therefore, I use it as a base.
    Select the three meshes, copy them (Ctrl-D) and move the new ones aside. Reduce the selection to the new head then switch to Component selection mode and move the vertices to their new position. Whatever hinders your sight, hide it - e.g. the upper row teeth. I worked from the innermost vertices of the lower lip to the outer.
    [ATTACH]232885[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]232886[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]232887[/ATTACH]
    If you are ready with all meshes(!) select one, then it's original, e.g. A01_O_kao_0_morph_kao_kuti2 then A01_O_kao_0_morph_kao_kuti. Activate the Animation menu and Edit Deformers \ Blend Shape \ Add. You would have to do that with all edited meshes.
    Spoiler

    Note! Maya 2012 has a bug here and interally deleted your new mesh (like if you would have choosen the option Delete Target in Create Deformers \ Blend Shape). Dont delete a mesh after adding it to the deformer, this might crash Maya during export later!
    The workaround is:
    Export All to FBX. Delete the scene by Ctrl-N and import the export you just made.

    Spoiler
    You'll notice that the new mesh is gone. The same problem happens if you try to Edit Deformers \ Blend Shape \ Remove. But the same workaround works for it.
    Rename the added channel to the keyframe you wish to replace by renaming the hidden mesh in the Outliner. Names are unique again. So, if you want to replace a keyframe in the XA then rename the original here first.
    [ATTACH]232888[/ATTACH]
    Spoiler
    The name change isn't reflected in the Blend Shape window. Do the workaround again.
    Make a final Export All to FBX. If you want to continue editing then delete the scene again and import the exported FBX.


    Back into the game
    Drop your export into SB3UGS. Disable the morph clip kao_kuti and enable only the keyframe you have edited. It's located at the end. Then drag the clip from the workspace somewhere into the morph clips editor.
    [ATTACH]232893[/ATTACH]
    Replacing the normals isn't useful although you need them, but the normals from Maya produce an ugly result. Click OK, then select the edited and replaced keyframe. Goto the XX Editor and correct the normals for that mesh.
    [ATTACH]232889[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]232890[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]232891[/ATTACH]
    Save the pp file.

    [ATTACH]232892[/ATTACH]

    Congratulations and thanks for reading!

    Please post your experience and questions here. I would bid to post your wishes for improvements of SB3UGS into it's own thread. Thank you.

    Comment


    • #32
      Very nice. I haven't spent any time looking at how animations/morphs work at all, but this gives me an idea how the concepts behind it work in action.
      Mod Tools: Quick XX | Quick MDL Decompiler | Yuusha Rename | Yuusha Loader | GUI Plst Tool

      3D Tools Sanae 3D | Noesis XX Plugin

      Characters: Esk (Eskmate)

      Comment


      • #33
        I never thought modding animations could be messy , anyway I would like to take the morph ani as newbie mods, and bone ani as advanced mods.
        Video Tutorial : Illusion's HaremMate
        Mods Released : Renai+H mods : [v1.1] || Ore ga mod :[0.1 to 1.3] || IF mods : [0.3] || AA2 trials mods [0.1-1.0]

        Comment


        • #34
          Rotating a bone which animates several hundreds of vertices together - and you see how an entire arm or a leg are moved by that rotation - I think is easier, than having to care for every single vertex which can be moved in only one direction and has to be synchronized with other vertices even with vertices of other meshes. Both animation types have their field where they take advantage over the other type - and also they have weak points which have to be mastered.

          It is nice to hear that the tut could make those mechanisms clear. Thank you two for your comments.

          Comment


          • #35
            Well, it has been a while until the last time I used the 3dsmax to make a bone animation, it will require physique to do the task, and it is a lot of works and still it need to be fixed for the tearing caused by different angles of rotation. But the Maya gave me one completely new experience, it used the color boxes instead of physique.
            Video Tutorial : Illusion's HaremMate
            Mods Released : Renai+H mods : [v1.1] || Ore ga mod :[0.1 to 1.3] || IF mods : [0.3] || AA2 trials mods [0.1-1.0]

            Comment


            • #36
              Then you most probably used more functions than required. The first and simple part of the tutorial for Maya can be done in Max without using any physics. But I'm happy to be able to do the things in Maya.

              BTW, I'd appreciate, if any of you would "translate" my tutorials for the use of Max or other professional tools!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by silice View Post
                Hi,

                I don't think metasoica/blender/3ds tutorial are the most important, we can find plenty of demo/tutorials on youtube. I'm more concerned about find some material we could use without legal issues :
                - Meshs (body, clothes, environment)
                - bones
                - animations
                - textures
                It's not so easy to find 'ecchi' models, most are on japanese/chinese sites, makes it hard to find proper search keyword or miss a link ... stuffs like that.

                Having a "dataBank" we could access somewhere with what we have created and collected (if it's free stuffs like MMD) would greatly increase the number of contributors.

                It could be used both for modding existing games and for those who are making smaller games on their spare time.

                I'm not a real modder (Java developer) but I used to work with autocad3d and I have one nice model I made with blender. I would gladly share it if this "databank" existed.

                Try Renderosity.com they have a lot of free stuff. Free to join and free to use but, some stuff you may have to buy but look in free section. https://market.renderosity.com/mod/f...=day&username=

                Comment


                • #38
                  Renderosity has big library of resources, but they are usually very high poly-count resources, making it difficult to use as a mod for any games (think about it took a few Gbyte of your Vram to load some high polycount models.), and reducing-polygon count will also lead to tearing/uncovered meshes, so far it is only good for animation-making or rendering frames.

                  @enimaroah
                  I can only find this tutorial for 3dsmax, but it is plainly pain in the ass to do all the skinning in 3 dimensions, the tutorial took about 1 hours to just do the skinning part, and took another hours for the fixing tearing parts, most people will just give up in a few minutes due to boredom unless they are enthusiast in 3dsmax.

                  By far, metaseq are great to use, it is simple enough to get the job done, it is a very good tool for uving and creating new stuff.
                  Last edited by tomatopasta; 12-21-2012, 08:52 AM.
                  Video Tutorial : Illusion's HaremMate
                  Mods Released : Renai+H mods : [v1.1] || Ore ga mod :[0.1 to 1.3] || IF mods : [0.3] || AA2 trials mods [0.1-1.0]

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Morph animations cannot be merged with the current version of SB3U/SB3UGS. I described that morph masks aren't modified in the morph tutorial. You would have to combine these masks to be able to morph both parts of the face together. Then you would pull the sliders of a kao_me_xx and a kao_kuti_xx in Maya to define the starting expression, copy that state and make a morph keyframe from it. The same for the end expression.

                    I have thought about it a while ago and may be I will extend the functionality with the handling as I told in my tut NOT to do : setting the vertex colours. This is not trivial because extending the morph mask invalidates all morph keyframes of that morph clip at once. And some morph keyframes are used in more than one clip.

                    Morph animations just have a beginning and an end. A weight would be like a slider and you can set it between these limits. Two of these animations pulling the same vertex into the same direction would double the movement. This would most likely yield to an unwanted expression.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      If you pull two sliders (channels) of the same morph clip (blend shape) and a vertex is moved into the same direction, then you'll get such an expression.

                      It should be possible to get all character related stuff into one file, but it is resource intensive. E.g. if you want to edit animations of male and female simultaneously.

                      The default in Maya is the same and you dont see the vertex colours immediately. That's why I included the option in my tutorial's screenshot.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by markantony
                        ...
                        2. MAX is killing me. I export key frame range 0-9440 and in MAX it is imported as 0 - 11800!! Of course timing is messed up. I installed Maya 2013 x64 and it's perfect...
                        Not entirely perfect, see the warning about the frames per second! Maya notices that the animation uses 24 fps. Max may resample after import to 30 fps!?

                        Originally posted by markantony
                        ...
                        3. Rememnber our discussion about normals? ...
                        Even in Sb3UGS you can see more than one normal at one position. Usually after import and replacing a mesh from an Fbx. At this point is ALWAYS more than one vertex! This is not different for Maya.[ATTACH]236771[/ATTACH]

                        When Maya imports a mesh, it recalculates the normals but does not average them. The result is that you see several normals at those positions. You have two options:
                        • to weld the vertices. Fixes the problem only if the vertices are in the same submesh.
                        • to average the normals

                        There is an old mystery in SB3U and SB3UGS: the normals in an Fbx import of Illusion meshes are bad. Dont ask me why. I tried to find it several times. And I nearly fell from my chair when this did not happen after importing a REAL mesh (RH coordinate system).

                        You can calculate new normals at the mesh editor. Mind the tooltip about the sign of the value! The computation currently works only for the selected mesh (with morphs), but does not consider several meshes at once. (Reported by FutaBoy, and I will implement this.)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          If you open a character, Sb3UGS doesn't compute any normals. It just takes the precalculated normals stored in the vertex structure. If these are correct then the two lines for the normals are painted over each other and you see only one.

                          The shots show the typical fbx import misery:
                          1. you export an original mesh
                          2. import, edit and export in Maya
                          3. import into Sb3UGS and the normals for unwelded vertices are bad


                          [Images show FutaBoy's nubby dildo]
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by markantony
                            ...
                            What is about VertexListDuplicate? Can it be useful here?
                            No, the vertices in VertexListDuplicate are recruited from the vertex lists of the submeshes. At least this list is computed like that after creating a new mesh.

                            If you dont need to bring the meshes back into the original game, you could weld the vertices and average the normals afterwards.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Hi everyone!
                              Is there a way to "export" a girl's complete model/mesh (with bones) from an Illusion game
                              (i. e., Artificial Girl 3, Sexy Beach 3, Love Girl...), with her clothes, head, hair, glasses, etc.
                              altogether, then I can edit them in 3ds Max?
                              Is it possible? Is there a detailed guide or tutorial showing how to do it?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Can i ask metasequoia questions here? Related to AG3.

                                Say I've exported an mqo file and I'm trying to edit it for the purposes of creating an xdiff file. The mqo file consists of hadaka, hadakaL, hadakaR, chikuL, and chikuR. ie, I'm adjusting the shape of the model's breasts. So far I'm mostly using the magnet command.

                                1) Is there a way to use the magnet but specify a vertex and a start and end point so that making adjustments can be more repeatable? I ask this because I still don't know how to adjust the left and right sides of an object identically so they are symmetrical

                                2) Is there a way to select overlapping vertices from 2 different objects at the same time? ie, the hadakaL and chikuL objects are supposed to always overlap, correct? How can I keep them joined so if I adjust one, the other also adjusts?

                                Thank you for your patience.

                                Comment

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