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  • Hybrid cars saving the world?... or not?

    So the Detroit Motor Show came along and started showing off a load of hybrids. I've seen 3 separate news channels showcasing the Motor Show and praising the Prius and hybrid cars, but why?

    First of all, hybrid cars still use gas engines. So that throws out the point of trying to stop the world's draining oil resource. To even get anywhere, you have to use the gas engine. The electric motor is completely relied on, without the gas engine, on very, very low speeds. Sure, the electric motor is great for stop and start traffic jams, but the fact is that the gas is being used to charge the batteries. If you run out of battery juice, the car will rely completely on the gas engine until the battery is charged up.

    Secondly, there's the cost. People may think "Oh, I'm not using gas all the time so I'm saving money on gas usage." Uh oh, it's too bad that hybrid vehicles cost so much more than their non-hybrid counterparts that a hybrid owner would have to drive twenty thousand kilometres a year for 5-10 years, depending on the cost difference, to make up the savings on initial cost. It's very impractical.

    Third, there is the issue of speed. If you're not in constant congested roads, maybe you drive quite a lot on the highways or live in cities that don't have that much traffic, you're wasting more gas than the non-hybrid counterparts. The reason is the weight. It's common knowledge that more fuel is needed to drive faster, and you need to drive faster to achieve the same speed if you were carrying more weight. Taking a normal Camry versus a hybrid Camry, the hybrid has 161 more kilograms because of its hybrid engine and build. All that weight consumes more fuel to achieve the same amount of speed.

    As a joke test, Top Gear ran a test with a Prius against a BMW M3. The Prius was driven at its top speed of SNORE (99 mph) with a 1.5 litre 4 cylinder engine. The M3 has a 414bhp 4 litre V8 engine. The result was that the Prius did 17.2 mpg (miles per gallon) while the M3 did 19.4 mpg. So not only is the Prius slow, but its gas engine is terribly made that the M3 can get more power from less fuel with its engine.

    The conclusion is that hybrids are terrible.

    But the one thing that bothers me the most is that all those news glanced over the car that will save the world.

    The Honda FCX Clarity runs on compressed hydrogen and uses no gas. Hydrogen is abundant and there are hydrogen filling stations in California where they are testing hydrogen fuel cars. The only emission that comes out of the FCX Clarity is water, so why are the hybrids in the headlines and this car isn't? Sure, it's not available everywhere just yet, but if the world smartens up and demand and invest into hydrogen vehicles, we'd see them much sooner around the world.
    My Clannad Fanfic - "The After" After Story.
    <3 Married to hbun and Kouji-kun <3

  • #2
    You answered your question about the clarity in your first statements. Hybrids still use fuel. That means oil companies are still needed. Our economy is based on oil consumption. If we remove a large part of that consumption then the oil companies who support many other corporate entities will loose large amounts of money and thus unable to support those other companies.

    many companies have had Hydrogen only cars ready for years. But the governments will not allow them into full production because of the impact it would have on the oil industry. So they stalemate by allowing a small amount in various markets for testing.

    Until they can find another raw material to base economy on or we run out of oil, you will not see vehicles that do not consume fuel in large numbers on the road.
    “If Apple made a car would it have windows?"

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    • #3
      That's all high and mighty conspiracy talk.

      Demolishing the oil industry only worries the Middle East. The economy would be saved by not relying on oil. In fact, oil is the driving force of making everything damn expensive.
      My Clannad Fanfic - "The After" After Story.
      <3 Married to hbun and Kouji-kun <3

      Comment


      • #4
        oil does not only affect the middle east...

        canada provides 30% of american oil more than what the middle east provides combined also we get most of our oil from venezuela and some south american countries then again I read this last year so it prob changed especially with canada cuz im sure their cutting back on selling oil

        russia, china, norway, brazil and some more im too tired to think rely alot on selling oil

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        • #5
          Oh yeah Canada.

          Actually, only Alberta benefits from it. They get free health care and get to spend a bit more on whatever celebrations they get, but the Canadian government has to spend billions on reducing Carbon Dioxide emissions. If oil was gone, every Canadian would get free health care, and it doesn't stop there. House heating, airplane travel, transportation, manufacturing, everything needs fuel. Right now, compressed hydrogen cost a bit less than gas in California, where it is available. If the production of purified hydrogen increases, the price of the fuel would be slashed down to nothing, saving people thousands of dollars that they can spend into the economy on other products that make living better for them.

          The problem is really the availability of fossil fuel and where it comes from. Hydrogen is everywhere, dinosaurs aren't.
          My Clannad Fanfic - "The After" After Story.
          <3 Married to hbun and Kouji-kun <3

          Comment


          • #6
            isnt hydrogen limited just like fossil fuels?

            im not into science so iono

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            • #7
              i liked this post...and i agree...

              specially about the hydrogen car but sadly, it's all about money.

              ...though i do intend on buying a hydrogen car and it's not gonna be because i want to go green.

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              • #8
                Might it be that solarenemy was pointing out that it isn't only autos that we rely on oil for? Food and feed production, some electric power generation, clothing, housewares like carpet, roofing and man made building materials, the nice $100 tennis shoes, glues and solvents, plastics, along with many more are all industries that highly depend on petroleum distilates. We are moving in the right direction but it will take time to incorporate the new technology into our lives. Then we still need to find alternative production processes/materials to most of the man made stuff we all want or need.
                Certain alge produces a product very similar to oil which can be distiled to produce a lot of what we use oil for but that is still being developed.
                The oil and related industries is where a lot of the research funding comes from. They won't disappear, just move on to other materials to make money from as they become available.
                Last edited by bobuild01; 01-13-2009, 08:15 PM.

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                • #9
                  The problem with Hydrogen production right now is the way it is most often prodoced. That is with electrolysis. Where the expose water to an electric charge to seperate the oxygen and hydrogen atoms. This actually requires for more electricity to produce a small amout of hydrogen. Right now there is not an economical way to extract enough hydrogen from the air and water to go full scale. Furthermore unless we switch over to all Nyclear power then we will still need a form of fossil fuel to run the power plants that supply the electricity to produce the hydrogen. They gave some small stations like the ones in Cali that use solar power. However that is not sufficient enough to support the volume that the station would get if all cars where hydrogen powered. Right now they can only get about a 1 to 4 part yield of hydrogen. For every unit of hydrogen they get it requires 4 times that unit of electric power to produce it.

                  The problem is that hydrogen does not exist by its self in nature. It readily bond with oxygen where ever it is to form water. So it is always bonded to oxygen in it's natural state. Now not sure what you know about chemistry or physics, but when you have to chemicals that are bonded by their electrons, it takes a lot of energy to break those bonds.

                  All the porn you fab to would not exist either since there would be no media to effectively distribute it. Your PS3, Wii, 360 would all be none existant. In fact you would be doing everything by candlelight at night and the winter you'd be buried under covers as you would have no central heat. Just imagine what life would be like for you in the Prairie Settler days and you can thank all you have now to oil.

                  I'm not for it's use either, I just know we could not exist without it at our current time.

                  I'm sure if they can come up with a more economical and safe way to produce hydrogen then yes we will see more cars. Another thing to note is hydrogen by its self is extremely explosive so there is a storage hazard for vehicles as well as stations that deal with compressed hydrogen. The alternative is to produce a highly efficient fuel cell that will break down water and produce hydrogen and oxygen right in the car. Plus the storage need will be limited as the car will consume the hydrogen as it is produced.

                  Originally posted by bobuild01 View Post
                  Might it be that solarenemy was pointing out that it isn't only autos that we rely on oil for? Food and feed production, some electric power generation, clothing, housewares like carpet, roofing and man made building materials, the nice $100 tennis shoes, glues and solvents, plastics, along with many more are all industries that highly depend on petroleum distilates. We are moving in the right direction but it will take time to incorporate the new technology into our lives. Then we still need to find alternative production processes/materials to most of the man made stuff we all want or need.
                  Certain alge produces a product very similar to oil which can be distiled to produce a lot of what we use oil for but that is still being developed.
                  This was going to be my next point. Everything synthetic that you own is produced from oil or it's derivatives. Your PC you are own now would not exist without oil by products. Your clothes would not exist. Your furniture your TV would not exist.

                  Electronics would be nonexistent without oil. There is a reason everything you see today was not available before oil was discovered. If it was not for oil, we would all be living on and episode of Little House on the Prairie. Even things we take for granted like water and sewer pumping stations would not exist without oil. The rely on rubber seals and electricity or gas to operate. So no running water or sewer disposal without oil. Everything that makes your life livable, even air condition would be gone if we dumped oil. Your very life and existnace depends on oil. So it is impossible to just stop using oil and convert to hydrogen.
                  Last edited by solarenemy; 01-13-2009, 08:18 PM.
                  “If Apple made a car would it have windows?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eufonius View Post
                    isnt hydrogen limited just like fossil fuels?

                    im not into science so iono
                    You probably produced more hydrogen by peeing than you used gas.

                    Originally posted by bobuild01 View Post
                    Might it be that solarenemy was pointing out that it isn't only autos that we rely on oil for? Food and feed production, some electric power generation, clothing, housewares like carpet, roofing and man made building materials, the nice $100 tennis shoes, glues and solvents, plastics, along with many more are all industries that highly depend on petroleum distilates. We are moving in the right direction but it will take time to incorporate the new technology into our lives. Then we still need to find alternative production processes/materials to most of the man made stuff we all want or need.
                    Certain alge produces a product very similar to oil which can be distiled to produce a lot of what we use oil for but that is still being developed.
                    Most of what you're talking about is dependent on fuel, not specifically oil. The only one that is dependent on fossil fuel is plastic and half of the rubbers. Everything else is just powered by a fuel source.

                    It's only a matter of time when plastic and rubber finds its way out and new replacement materials go into production.
                    My Clannad Fanfic - "The After" After Story.
                    <3 Married to hbun and Kouji-kun <3

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Whoaness View Post
                      You probably produced more hydrogen by peeing than you used gas.


                      Most of what you're talking about is dependent on fuel, not specifically oil. The only one that is dependent on fossil fuel is plastic and half of the rubbers. Everything else is just powered by a fuel source.

                      It's only a matter of time when plastic and rubber finds its way out and new replacement materials go into production.
                      Your wrong. ALL synthetics that we use are derived from oil. Also the chemicals used in semiconductor manufacturing is also derived from oil. Many of a drugs that keep us healthy and alive now are derived from oil by products. Our lives are so intertwined with and dependent on oil and its by products now, we would not exist without it. It will be many lifetimes from now before we can be completely weened from oil and even then we may bot be able to forget it completely. Unless everything you own is composed of ALL natural materials which I doubt, then you are probably about 50% or more dependent on oil for your daily life and existence. Like I said, without oil we would all be living in the old west days.

                      As far as your peeing comment. Again it will require for more energy to extract the little bit of hydrogen from a bladders worth of pee then the yield of hydrogen you would get with current available extraction methods.

                      Hydrogen and oxygen will not just give each other up without applying a lot of force. They probably share one of the strongest electron bonds of all the elements on the periodic table. They are so compatible and ready to bond with each other that they literally seek out each other to bond to.

                      I am all for dumping the need for oil. But we as a species are not ready to do so nor will we be able to for many more generations. Hopefully the world will hold up that long. I have a feeling it's going to require a near global catastrophe related to oil before man realizes he needs to do away with it.
                      Last edited by solarenemy; 01-13-2009, 08:32 PM.
                      “If Apple made a car would it have windows?"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by solarenemy View Post
                        The problem with Hydrogen production right now is the way it is most often prodoced. That is with electrolysis. Where the expose water to an electric charge to seperate the oxygen and hydrogen atoms. This actually requires for more electricity to produce a small amout of hydrogen. Right now there is not an economical way to extract enough hydrogen from the air and water to go full scale. Furthermore unless we switch over to all Nyclear power then we will still need a form of fossil fuel to run the power plants that supply the electricity to produce the hydrogen. They gave some small stations like the ones in Cali that use solar power. However that is not sufficient enough to support the volume that the station would get if all cars where hydrogen powered. Right now they can only get about a 1 to 4 part yield of hydrogen. For every unit of hydrogen they get it requires 4 times that unit of electric power to produce it.

                        The problem is that hydrogen does not exist by its self in nature. It readily bond with oxygen where ever it is to form water. So it is always bonded to oxygen in it's natural state. Now not sure what you know about chemistry or physics, but when you have to chemicals that are bonded by their electrons, it takes a lot of energy to break those bonds.

                        All the porn you fab to would not exist either since there would be no media to effectively distribute it. Your PS3, Wii, 360 would all be none existant. In fact you would be doing everything by candlelight at night and the winter you'd be buried under covers as you would have no central heat. Just imagine what life would be like for you in the Prairie Settler days and you can thank all you have now to oil.

                        I'm not for it's use either, I just know we could not exist without it at our current time.

                        I'm sure if they can come up with a more economical and safe way to produce hydrogen then yes we will see more cars. Another thing to note is hydrogen by its self is extremely explosive so there is a storage hazard for vehicles as well as stations that deal with compressed hydrogen. The alternative is to produce a highly efficient fuel cell that will break down water and produce hydrogen and oxygen right in the car. Plus the storage need will be limited as the car will consume the hydrogen as it is produced.
                        Blah blah blah blah blah. Sorry mate. There are dozens Hydrogen filling stations in California right now and near hundred FCX Clarity cars being used. It's safe. The FCX Clarity can do 280 miles on its tank of compressed hydrogen.

                        And the electrolysis method you're talking about is old. New methods produce electricity at a greater rate than it is being used. It is a renewable source of fuel.

                        It's like you have no idea how much less dependent the world can be if we move from oil to hydrogen fuel. Anything electrical and all transportation uses far more oil than the production of synthetic products. And synthetic products are recyclable; burning fuel is not. So, please, remove that mentality of an oil tycoon idiot who thinks oil is everything. You just have no idea what you're talking about, and that's why the world is too afraid to invest in the restructuring of the oil based economy because of people like you.
                        My Clannad Fanfic - "The After" After Story.
                        <3 Married to hbun and Kouji-kun <3

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                        • #13
                          I dislike Hyrbrids, they sound like the type of vehicle I would drive if I lived in, oh I don't know. Say San Fransisco? Say "Hello Sailor" alot, get what I'm saying?? As pointed out earlier in this thread, the Prius is less economical than an M3 at the Prius' top speed but that is to be expected. Supposedly, at slower speeds, the Hybrid is greater because it's advantage is stop-start traffic, so it was designed for cities.

                          But the one thing that I hate the most is that according to a recent study, to make a Hybrid Engine, it does more ecological damage than a Land Rover Discovery will in it's life-time. This is because they mine the Nickel from a mine in Canada. It's then loaded onto a cargo-ship to get transported to Europe where it's refined, then it's sent to China where it is transformed into a foam and then onto Japan to be put into the batteries. How ridiculously complicated is that??

                          It's a fairly stupid concept to begin with, but then again, the first car was nothing to drop your pants for either. They will become greater and in-time, they will eventually reach the point of power that we are today but for this entire idea to work, they have to start at the very beginning of car technology, and work the power up again.

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                          • #14
                            So your saying if we ban the use of oil for ANYTHING at this very moment then tomorrow morning they can build you a PC or PS3 or TV that works. Your saying That if we ban oil this very moment that tomorrow morning you can still cook your breakfast. Your saying that if we ban oil right now, how long do you think we can produce clothes and fabrics out of cotton and plant fiber? Based on the worlds population versus agriculture. Not sure if you noticed but agriculture is already seeing a food crop shortage guess what happens when clothing starts hitting that crop as well? Also DON'T EVER accuse me of being a fuking oil tycoon. I despise it's use but i am a rational thinker and not an idealist or dreamer like yourself. I know what the stuff I wear and use and live on and in is made of. I KNOW WHERE I WOULD BE WITHOUT OIL. I don't need some dreamer to accuse me of promoting it when i am doing just the opposite. I would love to stop using but I KNOW we CAN'T. Your Elitist I'm better then you attitude can burn in hell as far as I am concerned. Dreamers don't make things happen. It's doers that achieve goals. So if you think we can exist without oil now then i challenge you to remove anything from your home that is synthetic, plastic of any kind, rubber, vinyl, anything printed, all current ink is derived from oil. Then once all that is removed from your house see how well you live and see what you can purchase that is not packaged in one of those materials. Oh and guess what even the ink on your money is oil based. There is almost nothing that you own or posses that does not have oil in it's chemical make up.

                            The world is not ready and not able to go oil free.
                            “If Apple made a car would it have windows?"

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                            • #15
                              i think full electric cars are the way of the future. i remember at the chicago auto show like 3 pure electric cars were introduced. with electric cars you dont need gasoline, hydrogen,or ethanol; all which have major drawbacks.

                              hydrogen is difficult to extract presently, and fairly expensive. with ethanol, farmers shift their crops so that they can cash in, raising food prices and decreasing availability.

                              with Electricity though, you could use power from solar, wind and various other environmentally friendly sources. the tesla roadster showed that electric cars dont have to be lame.

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