Loli Issue Announcement

Para · #1 02-02-2006, 10:58 AM

Dear Hongfire.com Community,

This is an announcement regarding the recent decision on the issue of lolicon and the removal of the lolicon gallery.

Many of our beloved users of our community has being going a lot of turmoil through this controversy and we formally apologize for this incident.

After a majority of the staff investigating the PROTECT Act of 2003, it has become apparent that the decision making process has erred in determining whether loli was legal or not.

Title V - Obscenity and Pornography
Subtitle A - Child Obscenity and Pornography Prevention
Section 502, page 77, paragraph 11, lines 3-10 of the PROTECT Act of 2003, it states that "(11) the term 'indistinguishable' used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an actual minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct. This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures or paintings depicting minors or adults."

The fact that Loli or Lolicon art are drawings indicates that Loli or Lolicon art does not apply to this definition of 'indistinguishable'.

“child pornography” means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where—
(A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;
(B) such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or
(C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct.

“identifiable minor”—
(A) means a person—
(I) who was a minor at the time the visual depiction was created, adapted, or modified; or
(II) whose image as a minor was used in creating, adapting, or modifying the visual depiction; and
(ii) who is recognizable as an actual person by the person’s face, likeness, or other distinguishing characteristic, such as a unique birthmark or other recognizable feature; and
(B) shall not be construed to require proof of the actual identity of the identifiable minor.

Lolicon art or Loli does not directly use minors so it is another exemption.

In light of this investigation and retrospect, we regret this past incident and the staff will promptly re-install the loli gallery.

However it has also brought up to my attention with the behaviour and attitude regarding anti loli and loli issue. The staff of Hongfire.com does not condone any unethical flaming and/or personal attacks on those that do appreciate the loli or lolicon art and/or those that do not share the same interest in loli or lolicon art. The staff of Hongfire.com works to promote community where the majority of members share the same and good level of respect between each other neglecting different views, sexual orientation or what other characteristics that may make each member different from one another.

We hope to continue in building a great community in ways we deem possible.

Note: If you intend to dispute our decision, we will only accept disputes from those that have proper lawyer credentials.

milkmandan · #2 02-02-2006, 11:23 AM

Welps, very happy to see that the gallery is coming back. and very happy to see that my points did not go to waste~ (exemption 2) lets hope some people that were unhappy about the issue (and left) return to hongfire ><

seeing that this is such a nice community. btw. I hear there is a new script for the gallery, is the loli gallery gna get updated along with that?

Omega-Poot · #3 02-02-2006, 11:31 AM

Once again, freedom of speech reigns over majority zealotry and the knee-jerk reactionary public's desire to ban. Most excellent.

rkphares · #4 02-02-2006, 11:36 AM

the question is, when is it going to be back up, its presently Feb of 2006 and its still not there. i guess they are sorting through the system and server resourses to try and pull a full recovery... normaly it shouldnt have taken this long unless someone is trying to pull some sort of BS.

milkmandan · #5 02-02-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkphares

the question is, when is it going to be back up, its presently Feb of 2006 and its still not there. i guess they are sorting through the system and server resourses to try and pull a full recovery... normaly it shouldnt have taken this long unless someone is trying to pull some sort of BS.

uhh.. there is a server upgrade going on RIGHT NOW, the WHOLE forum is getting revamped (database wise) i am not surprised that they ARE busy.
if you haven't noticed, the site is still kind a buggy.

I am not surprised its not back up. Para just posted the announcement 1 HOUR ago. O_O what do you expect?

Atachi · #6 02-02-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkphares

the question is, when is it going to be back up, its presently Feb of 2006 and its still not there. i guess they are sorting through the system and server resourses to try and pull a full recovery... normaly it shouldnt have taken this long unless someone is trying to pull some sort of BS.

as i explained somewhere else earlier this week, reimporting a backuped database into a constantly changing one can take some time if you don't just want to reset changes (as in new posts) in it.

also the gallery-software will too get an update "soon" (don't quote me on that ^^), so i would say at least then the loli-gallery will be back.

rkphares · #7 02-02-2006, 11:41 AM

oh well, looking forward to having things back to the way things were, and if the system recovery is going to take time, i understand because you guys have alot of stuff to go through, unless you had placed everything in a raid drive and then tossed it in a closet somewhere, then you just gotta dig it up and viola, its back to the action.

rkphares · #8 02-02-2006, 11:42 AM

well i missed the system upgrade post, my bad

if the system is being upgraded, then i would say they have some work to do :: knows how it is upgrading servers, worked for a university in the networking department with all of their private servers for a year, then promptly went insane:: just kidding about going insane, although my boss at that time almost had a nervous breakdown because he challenged a few of us to hack the firewall he built and we ended up tearing it to shreds, boy was he mad.

deadcoat · #9 02-02-2006, 12:52 PM

Great news. I do have a question are there going to be any new rules for posting in the loli gallery?

Cimexus · #10 02-02-2006, 01:47 PM

Just something to consider Hongfire. I am perhaps not qualified to speak about US law, as I have Australian qualifications (LLB) not US ones. But I believe you reside in Australia, correct? You are thus subject to Australian law as far as your site is concerned. It does not matter where the server is located...it is the actions of PEOPLE that the law looks at.

Is lolicon imagery 'child pornography' under US law: probably not (although it's not as simple as the original post makes out).

Is lolicon 'child pornography' under Australian law: absolutely YES.

Analysis of the US law

Something is child porn if it falls under any of those three categories described: (A), (B) or (C). Lolicon does not fall under (B), as it fails to satisfy the "indistinguishable" test as you rightly point out (cause it is artwork/drawings). It does not fall under (C) because it fails to meet the "identifyable minor" test. However it STILL MIGHT fall under (A), which requires only a depiction of a minor, not an identifyable minor.

However it's still pretty dubious from the US law whether lolicon satisfies the definition of child pornography. So we'll leave that in the "maybe" pile for now.

Analysis of Australian law

Lolicon imagery probably IS defined as child pornography under Australian (federal) law. Which means yes you can be prosecuted in Australia, despite the fact that the servers may not reside here.

CRIMINAL CODE ACT 1995 (Cth)
SECT 473.1 Definitions

"child pornography material "means:

(a) material that depicts a person, or a representation of a person, who is, or appears to be, under 18 years of age and who:
(i) is engaged in, or appears to be engaged in, a sexual pose or sexual activity (whether or not in the presence of other persons); or
(ii) is in the presence of a person who is engaged in, or appears to be engaged in, a sexual pose or sexual activity;
and does this in a way that reasonable persons would regard as being, in all the circumstances, offensive; or

(b) material the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of:
(i) a sexual organ or the anal region of a person who is, or appears to be, under 18 years of age; or
(ii) a representation of such a sexual organ or anal region; or
(iii) the breasts, or a representation of the breasts, of a female person who is, or appears to be, under 18 years of age;
in a way that reasonable persons would regard as being, in all the circumstances, offensive; or
(c) <related to literature only>; or
(d) <related to literature only>.

Note that the key test under Australian law is whether or not a reasonable person would deem the material offensive, rather than merely consideration of the content itself. This test is almost certainly satisfied by most lolicon drawings - however it would come down to a case by case analysis. There is no requirement for "identifiable" persons, like in the US law.

Given that it IS defined as child pornography, the relevant offence for dealing with it is below.

CRIMINAL CODE ACT 1995
Sect 474.19 Using a carriage service for child pornography material

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:

(a) the person:
(i) uses a carriage service to access material; or
(ii) uses a carriage service to cause material to be transmitted to the person; or
(iii) uses a carriage service to transmit material; or
(iv) uses a carriage service to make material available; or
(v) uses a carriage service to publish or otherwise distribute material; and
(b) the material is child pornography material.

Penalty: Imprisonment for 10 years.

Most relevant to operation of this site are subsections (iv) and (v). It does not matter where the servers are. If you are using Australian communications infrastructure for transmitting, publishing, making available etc. child pornography, it's illegal.

Just something to consider...a friendly reminder to be aware that it is the laws of where you live, not where your servers are, that matters. Having said that...I wouldn't worry much, the chance of this being enforced is next to nil.