E2064 New Gathering Section

[GameraBaenre]

The "original" might be better, but it ain't gonna be worth that extra dineiro

With buying an original, you are also supporting the original artist, for if not for them, there would not be such nice sculptures. The recast industry has significantly impacted the costs and production of original sculpts. Being one who has made many recast purchases, I am too part of the problem. I thought, hmm.. it's a pricing issue, the quality is sometimes comparable - yet this was before I bought or attempted to buy an original.

As I have progressed into this model form, my attitude has change considerably. I will first attempt to buy an original before resorting to a recast. The quality and fit of originals far outmatch anything a recast can do (regardless of anything, a recast is a copy of an original, it can NEVER be better than an original) I resigned myself to two recent recasts for the simple reason that I believed that I could not get my hands on the original (even though I tried - regardless of costs) However, there was a recent development where the original sculptor put out a promotion to cast more of the originals and sell via a mail order from magazine coupons (Haruhi with guitar). I have already made the effort and funds to acquire at least one, and possibly an additional original Bubba Haruhi. As a consumer, if I cannot possibly get my hands on an original, I will resort to piracy. As an artist, I know what it feels like to produce a product, only to have someone purchase it and make their own cheap copies as a means to undersell me. Right now, the recast vs original argument is still a very dark gray.... but it's getting very close to black and white. Read Bubba's blog, he actually states the reasons behind decisions to make a pvc, or sell resin casts of the Haruhi with guitar as a direct result of the pirate recast industry. Most folks who buy recasts have no idea what kind of insult and impact a recaster has on the original sculpter. Such rampant piracy has forced several sculptors to be wary and limit production runs as a means to thwart the recaster.

I fully understand the reasons folks buy recasts - they're cheaper, and they're readily avaliable. This however does not make it right. If you have the means to chose an original over a recast, I seriously hope you support the original artist. Without them, we wouldn't have so many nice kits.

Sorry for the long tirade... but I feel that the "originals" are always worth the extra $$. Additionally, not all YJ auctions sell a painted originals. It may be hard to see, but you can usually tell, with close inspection and knowledge of the original, if the item for sale is truely an original or a recast being sold at original prices.

[milkmandan]

Well if you think about it that way, the artist is not the one selling the original figures on YJA.
So even if you bought it from YJA, you aren't really supporting the artist. It is almost like, you buy a PS3 from someone on eBay. are you really supporting Sony? or are you just supporting the person who Bought the PS3.
*yeah through transitive property of equality you might be supporting Sony, but life doesn't work that way does it?

The only way you would be supporting the artist directly is if you bought his kit in Japan at the WHF, or mailed in those coupons and what not.

In my case, I've already spent more than I should in a lifetime on my original kits (haruhi, sui, sou, Shana, Planetarian, Suigin, etc), I think i deserve to give myself a break and get a recast for the Devil Girl. If funds become available in the future, i will consider an original cast for her.

Fenix how much did you get your Devil Girl for? 18,000 yen flat? or did you have to bid up? And what was the average cost of the other auctions around you?

[GameraBaenre]

Well if you think about it that way, the artist is not the one selling the original figures on YJA.
So even if you bought it from YJA, you aren't really supporting the artist. It is almost like, you buy a PS3 from someone on eBay. are you really supporting Sony? or are you just supporting the person who Bought the PS3.
*yeah through transitive property of equality you might be supporting Sony, but life doesn't work that way does it?

The only way you would be supporting the artist directly is if you bought his kit in Japan at the WHF, or mailed in those coupons and what not.

In my case, I've already spent more than I should in a lifetime on my original kits (haruhi, sui, sou, Shana, Planetarian, Suigin, etc), I think i deserve to give myself a break and get a recast for the Devil Girl. If funds become available in the future, i will consider an original cast for her.

Originals are not only purchased via YJ. HLJ, HobbySearch, etc sell original kits from Volks, Clayz, etc. Kits that recasters will buy and recast for the simple goal of underselling the orignal artists. Now please do not misconstrue what I write. As I have stated, I, myself buy recasts - and I continue to buy recasts. At this point in my life, I choose to grab the original, if the means to do so do not exists, then I resort to a recast. This is my choice as a builder. Everyone has a reason for why they make certain choices. But my original reply was in response to icic's comment:

The "original" might be better, but it ain't gonna be worth that extra dineiro

I simply expressed my own opinion on the worth of an original - and my reasons for trying to grab origianls over recasts - again... as a builder.(I apologize, since I did not clearly state that my point of view is that of a model builder)

My reply was not intended to tell people not to buy recasts. It is only my personal opinion and my changing views that I try to grab originals over recasts - from a model builder's point of view. As a builder, there are huge differences between building a recast and building an original. For a prepaint, you are spending the cash on the builder's skills - which is already beyond the choice made by the builder to buy and build a recast or an original. Effectively, when you make the choice to buy a prepainted figure, it doesn't matter if you purchase a prepainted original or a prepainted recast, the damage or support to the orignal sculptor is already done.

As someone who buys prepainted works, you really do not have much control over buying an prepainted original or prepainted recast short of commissioning someone to build either a recast or an original. What is on the market is what is on the market. It is a fact that the recast business hurts the sculptors. I was merely pointing that out as one of the reasons to choose an original over a recast (if such a choice exists).

[milkmandan]

i think everyone would agree with you then...
in most cases..originals are always better than copies

[gundamjehutykai]

At the end of the day, You are much more likely to find a recast of a kit than an original to paint. The only real difference between the 2 most of the time is how much extra work you need to put in to make the recast look comparable to the original. anything between not too much (for the good recasts) to "why did I even bother" (for the poor ones).
unfortunately, for many kits, there isn't a choice between originals and recasts as there are no more originals.

While I will buy an original if I deem it worth the cash (so far, most of the time), I have no qualms about getting a recast. chances are, you won't be supporting the sculptor either way. Most sculptors make only very limited number of kits anyway. Bubba only made 200 haruhi kits to sell in wonderfestival so they probably do it mainly to show off their skills and gain recognition as opposed to funding their lifestyle. buying a recast isn't going to make them think about not making kits anymore, nor is it likely to force them into financial difficulty.

I have 3 recasts and 3 originals and only one kit can be considered to be helping the original sculptor and that was with my Kazami Mizuho from onegai Teacher since that kits was mass produced by Kotobukiya so the original sculptor was paid to give permission for the company to produce the kits. My money went to Kotobukiya but the sculptor was paid in advance.
My Mina and Haruhi were bought off YJ!A which is pretty much a second hand market so, as stated before, the sculptor saw none of the extra profit from the auction.

in short, Yes, Originals are better than recasts. But there is considerably less moral ground to tread on when choosing between the 2 than one would believe.

[GameraBaenre]

At the end of the day, You are much more likely to find a recast of a kit than an original to paint. The only real difference between the 2 most of the time is how much extra work you need to put in to make the recast look comparable to the original. anything between not too much (for the good recasts) to "why did I even bother" (for the poor ones).
unfortunately, for many kits, there isn't a choice between originals and recasts as there are no more originals.

Definitely true. I had this same conversation with Jim from HLJ this past year. He's very adamant about his stance on recasts. In our conversation, I took your stance. Availability and costs = justification for buying a recast. He had a very different view. Which was basically due to living in Japan, standing in line to grab originals when they came out, missing out on such opportunities - even having standing in line for hours, having vendors lie to him and say they don't have any more stock simply because he is a foreigner and fear that this foreigner will turn around and sell the kit to a recaster, etc etc. For Jim, the choice is simple, he will not support recasters. If he can get an original fine, if not, he will wait until the opportunity presents itself, even if that is never. Again, he has very strong opinions about this, and after talking to him, I fully understand his view. However, I don't fully abide by it.

Most sculptors make only very limited number of kits anyway. Bubba only made 200 haruhi kits to sell in wonderfestival so they probably do it mainly to show off their skills and gain recognition as opposed to funding their lifestyle. buying a recast isn't going to make them think about not making kits anymore, nor is it likely to force them into financial difficulty.

Heh, try telling this to the guy behind Tandem Twins, or any number of American GK sculptor. With most Japanese sculpted resin kits that are sold at conventions such as WHF, WF, etc - the limited number of casts are because these are "prototypes". That these prototype are then later picked up by a big production company such as Kotobukiya for future resin casts, or for making PVC painted versions. It is of my opinion that the ultimate goal for these sculptors is to have their works sold in the mass market in either nicely packaged resin kits or nicely packaged PVC painted sets. Again, read Bubba's blog, there's a fairly large blurb about what recasting has done. Link to the blog, use your favorite translation service or just read it if you can read Japanese My interpretation is that the rampant piracy of the Haruhi figure is the reason why there will not be a PVC version of that figure. Read the postings on various other blogs of sculptors, they usually have something to say about recasts. Heck, email the sculptors and ask them how recasts affect them.

Put yourself into the shoes of these sculptors. How would you feel if you created something, copyright it, sell it, only to have someone in another country buy it and make copies to sell at half your price. Sure, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but I'd still be pissed.

My money went to Kotobukiya but the sculptor was paid in advance.
My Mina and Haruhi were bought off YJ!A which is pretty much a second hand market so, as stated before, the sculptor saw none of the extra profit from the auction.

We are but customers. Unless you are part of the machine that creates and sells these products, the relationship, passing of money, etc between a big production company and the original artist are just guesses. As for the items bought from auction. At the very least, the sculptor already made the money when they sold it to the auctioneer. A recast gives nothing, it all goes to the recaster.

But there is considerably less moral ground to tread on when choosing between the 2 than one would believe.

I honestly hope that not all people think and feel this way. Granted I never thought about this before I met and talked with Jim; I'm only beginning to understand his point of view. The recast discussion has a long history. Will I change the minds of anyone? Probably not. Heck, I didn't think my mind would be changed... but it's changing. Make some friends with fellow modeler sculptors, you will feel their paint when they are ripped off.

Additionally, I have to apologize for continuing with this rant. I have a personal grudge against e2046... so this whole rant is partially resultant because of the blind love many have towards this company. I do not mean to come off as combative. Again, just voicing my opinions and views on the subject Not a personal attack on any one's choices to buy recasts or not.

[Fenix]

Fenix how much did you get your Devil Girl for? 18,000 yen flat? or did you have to bid up? And what was the average cost of the other auctions around you?

Arrrr 18,000 flat is asking for too much. After all you have to pay the entrance ticket and line up to pay 18,000 for that cold cast. I got it for 25,500. So it's not that crazy. There's not that many units on the YJA but at the same time they are all very close to that value. High in the 28,000, low well mine is already nearly the lowest =). There's a few buy it now at 27,000 and 28,000. So no it wasn't that crazily high. I think I got it at a very reasonable price.

As for this entire original vs. recast argument. Let's just say for all the "experts" on HF, let's setup a good example for everyone that we buy original whenever possible (budget, availability, etc), and only resort to recasts when there's good reasons. And when we buy recasts, we should realize we in turn are not supporting the artists. This way others that see our actions will hopefully be influenced enough that they will have similar judgment in them and so they will in turn try to support the artist as much as possible. I think that is the best and most healthy way to the entire issue of recast/original situation.

[Regal Shocker]

Think about this: Where can we overseas consumers go to buy originals from WHF like the Haruhi Bunny? I buy originals from HLJ, Animaxis, and Play-asia but the Haruhi Bunny is not sold there. Then there may be coupons but there is the language barrier to contend with (where did you get the coupons from anyway) and then there are some sellers like Himeya who will not ship at all to some countries. Considering these, I am forced to buy from e2046. Thank god at least the quality for the white resin is good.

[milkmandan]

Think about this: Where can we overseas consumers go to buy originals from WHF like the Haruhi Bunny? I buy originals from HLJ, Animaxis, and Play-asia but the Haruhi Bunny is not sold there. Then there may be coupons but there is the language barrier to contend with (where did you get the coupons from anyway) and then there are some sellers like Himeya who will not ship at all to some countries. Considering these, I am forced to buy from e2046. Thank god at least the quality for the white resin is good.

Where? Plenty of methods and places!

1) Yahoo Japan Auctions (the most mother-fuking expensive way to get anime merchandise)

2) Be friend someone in Japan

problem solved!

and yes i totally agree with Fenix.
Buy original whenever possible.

[GameraBaenre]

And here's yet another:
http://tokyohunter.blogspot.com/
There are plenty of ways and means. Gotta love the internet, and folks willing to help out oversears for a small commission...

The Haruhi coupon is available in Figure Maniacs Vol 22, and Dengeki Hobby Jan issue which just came out in Japan a few days ago. Bubb's company is accepting orders until Jan 25. The cost is about 14,000 yen for the figure only. Commissions costs, shipping, etc can be dealt with through whom ever you get to help you out on the endeavor. On a side note, the coupon/mail order thing is only valid for folks living in Japan.

On a side note, as a means to combat rampant recasts due to the whole "availability" issue; lots of sculptors have started to accept overseas mail orders such as Tandem Twins, Reflect, etc. Then there's always hope that a big company like Kotobukiya and others do pick up kits from sculptors quite often.

Most of the reasons why alot of the kits you see are in limited numbers is due to licensing. The original company that owns rights or what not of products such as Haruhi, Evangelion, <insert anime here>; allow the sculptor a "one day" licensing pass such that they can legally sell their kits. Even if the sculptor has additional casts that they were not able to sell, or had in stock - once the con day passes and the licensing for that day expires.... it's now illegal to sell the kit - as it would be copyright infringement - and the small time sculptors cannot legally fight big media giants that own the rights to various animes. This is the reason why some very much loved characters never get to see the light of day in terms of resin or pvc. Hope this helps shed some light on the limited nature of many resin products. It's not merely showing off but producing such a small number. I think if Bubba really knew the true extent to the popularity of his Haruhi, he/they/them would probably have tried to cast as many more.... but alas, they are a small shop too.

Bubba is limited on the number of kits they can sell (one day rule thing) yet recasts seem to get around this. The poor sculptors royally getting screwed. Geeze I sound like the RIAA.... But a surprising number of people have no idea about this - they see the cheaper price and the availability and think nothing else of it. I just hope one day more and more sculptors will take the lead from Tandem Twins and Reflect and start selling overseas... (there are still licensing issues, and Tandem Twins/Reflect get around this with original works sculpts - stuff not legally tied down by some big media corporation)